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chris1989
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2007 |
| Total Posts: 2520 |
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| 04 May 2013 08:35 PM |
| Totally true, no need to discuss. |
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| 04 May 2013 09:07 PM |
| Just discussed this with a friend of mine yesterday. |
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| 04 May 2013 09:38 PM |
Existence gives itself meaning through the experiences of the existent. To say that the meaning formed by the existent has no value would be false or unprovable, for we can only have the perspective of something that exists with our universe. We interact with the universe, and our changes to it are apparent.
Now that I've shown my view, I'll try arguing for the opposing side.
The existent's view is extremely limited. To say that the existent's interpretation of the universe had any relevant meaning to the universe as a whole would be preposterous. Humanity has barely been here for some thousand years, and we may very well be gone in the same time or earlier, and we will have made no changes to the course of the history of the universe. |
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| 05 May 2013 02:56 PM |
Even when changing history, what meaning is there?
You can say that we may have meaning through the way we affect our universe, but what is that? The universe lasts not forever, and why would it matter if we have affected it if there is no underlying meaning to that.
Even when we change the universe, there is no meaning to it? Why would it matter if our universe is different? |
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1waffle1
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| Joined: 16 Oct 2007 |
| Total Posts: 16381 |
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| 05 May 2013 03:32 PM |
Anyone who uses something that is not proven or understood as an argument is wrong.
There is no reason to think that there is or is not a purpose to anything, and even if there was, you couldn't prove it, so give up fighting over it. |
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| 05 May 2013 04:11 PM |
| yeah this goes to you atheist and your evolution. more research is done on intelligent design anyway. |
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| 05 May 2013 06:07 PM |
| Today I learned. Also waffle's post I now concur with. |
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| 05 May 2013 06:35 PM |
| I'm not one to fight over anything like this, I just simply state that I'm an atheist and a nihilist and leave it at that. It's all up to each of us to decide how we feel and I never like to argue about it because neither side will ever win. |
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| 05 May 2013 07:28 PM |
| Well, in the whole scheme of things, the universe will one day cease to exist. Though within theory, it will all end the same no matter what...Science proves this. Around 10^40 years from now, protons will have to begun decaying and all stars and the vast of everything will have been long gone. There will be nothing but black holes. And even they will begin to remove themselves through hawking radiation... There will be nothing, and there will be nothing we can do to change that unless we develop our own protons... though unlikely because... how do you develop things from nothing? If nothing exists, how do we create things? On a large scale, we are insignificant. |
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1waffle1
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| Joined: 16 Oct 2007 |
| Total Posts: 16381 |
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| 06 May 2013 03:08 PM |
| If you want to find the reason that we are here, then look back to the reason we became. We are instinctive creatures. We want to live. We're here because we instinctively want to live. The purpose of life is for the species to continue to live. No, the universe has no purpose. Life has a purpose, though. Life is a concept, not a thing. It is a generalization and classification of a series of limitless chemical reactions that take place. Life is not real, it is an idea. An idea has a purpose and can be described logically. The purpose of life is to continue the life of the species and improve it's efficiency over time. Outside of the realm of ideas and logic, there is physics, and nothing else. |
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MrChubbs
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| Joined: 14 Oct 2010 |
| Total Posts: 4969 |
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| 06 May 2013 03:11 PM |
| Waffle, everything can be broken down into physics, so you just contradicted yourself since that nothing is outside physics and as such logic and ideas don't exist. |
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1waffle1
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| Joined: 16 Oct 2007 |
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| 06 May 2013 03:14 PM |
| Logic and ideas do not exist. They are not physical entities. Physics does not classify things, logic and ideas do. If you want to start an argument about consciousness and self-awareness and neuroscience, you aren't going to get very far. |
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MrChubbs
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| Joined: 14 Oct 2010 |
| Total Posts: 4969 |
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| 06 May 2013 03:17 PM |
| You're right, when faced with such logical arguements...Oh wait logic doesn't exist. Ideas and logic do exist but inside the realm of physics, due to chemistry and the hardware of the brain. Physics DOES classify things, such as particles, planets, starts, spacetime, holograms(In relation to the holotape theory), so your argument is also flawed there, not to mention that physics is an abstract concept and as such an idea. |
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1waffle1
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| Joined: 16 Oct 2007 |
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| 06 May 2013 03:37 PM |
Logic exists as an idea. Ideas and logic exist inside the realm of neuroscience, which, today, cannot yet be broken down into physics. Physics does not classify things, ideas classify things. Physics is the idea that certain things happen for a certain reason, and that this reason can be explained. "Ideas" and "logic" are, simply put, connections made between real entities and between other connections. Physics follows a pattern. The behaviour of this pattern has been recognized and has been classified through various connections made consciously. "Life" is the connections made between similar behaviours of physical entities. Life is not itself an entity, it is the connections of similarities of things that are real. These connections are real as well, but they do not define how the universe functions, they are a result of how the universe functions. Life is the connection, not the entity that the connection is connected to. The connection can be classified through logic and ideas - other connections that also are individual entities. "Purpose" is a connection. The purpose of life is the connection between what life is and the physics behind its origin.
I never said that ideas and logic don't "exist," I'm saying that they are connections between other things that do exist, and that these connections do not mediate how things work; how things work results in the connections. |
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woot3
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| Joined: 10 Nov 2008 |
| Total Posts: 3599 |
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| 06 May 2013 03:44 PM |
It is my opinion that it is true. What's the point of having 7 million people with a purpose, when one person could have that purpose.
It's like baking a cake with 50 ovens, the other ovens are pointless.
I'm not even sure what I am saying makes any sense. Oh well, it's my opinion. |
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MrChubbs
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| Joined: 14 Oct 2010 |
| Total Posts: 4969 |
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| 06 May 2013 03:47 PM |
"Logic and ideas do not exist", pick a side a stick with it.
Neuroscience can be broken down into physics, can at the lowest level of abstraction it is just a mass of particles.
"Physics does not classify things, ideas classify things. Physics is the idea" So physics does classify things, because you state physics is an idea.
I am not so much arguing with your main points as I am pointing out the horrible logic used to derive them. |
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1waffle1
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| Joined: 16 Oct 2007 |
| Total Posts: 16381 |
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| 06 May 2013 03:48 PM |
| Ovens are generally more determined to fulfill their task than people. Having more than one oven to do one task would be pointless, as ovens are individual and have no collective ability to solve problems together. |
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MrChubbs
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| Joined: 14 Oct 2010 |
| Total Posts: 4969 |
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| 06 May 2013 03:52 PM |
| What if your oven breaks and you need a new one to finish the cake? |
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1waffle1
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| Joined: 16 Oct 2007 |
| Total Posts: 16381 |
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| 06 May 2013 03:53 PM |
'"Logic and ideas do not exist", pick a side a stick with it.' They are concepts. There is a connection made between a connection, it is a self-referential system. It isn't that it doesn't exist, it is that it is insignificant to anything else because it is only self-referential.
"So physics does classify things, because you state physics is an idea." Physics is an idea, but physics itself is a classification. Classifications do not classify things, they are already classifications. Groups of connections classify things. Physics is not the entity, it is the result.
"I am not so much arguing with your main points as I am pointing out the horrible logic used to derive them." Am I not using logic to your standards, or do your standards simply not meet with my logic? |
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