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Evidence of WIJ Twisting Rules (JC War)

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PLOOBER33 is not online. PLOOBER33
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Total Posts: 7513
11 Apr 2013 08:41 PM
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: Why in the world would you side with JC instead of WIJ?
Celestus: why do u think
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: WIJ had every right to end the war.
Celestus: end it yes
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: End it and win
Celestus: no
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: WIJ earned 56 wins(Yes I know they didn't matter) and JC didn't attend the FB
Celestus: the FB was set for the 20th, not when WIJ decided
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: In the rules
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: SS said.
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: If JC AAs
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: or exploits
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: They have the right
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: To end the war.,
Celestus: Yes cease the war I am aware
Celestus: I don't deny that
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: JC wanted a FB
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: WIJ gave them the chance to do a FB
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: And they didn't take it.
Celestus: No, JC wanted a FB on the 20th, as originally decided
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: The FB was pushed up to today because the war would of been ended unless they moved it up.
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: Why not move the FB up?
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: Why not?
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: WIJ did not want to continue the war with JC AAing, we wanted tthe war to be over with.
Celestus: it was pushed up by WIJ, who decided when
Celestus: that was not the decision of one group
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: The thing is
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: JC HRs AGREED to it
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: But pspjohn just didn't want them to fight
Celestus: hmm
Celestus: for this i will give you a quote from silentswords
Celestus: 'But owen is not incharge of WIJ officially, I am.'
Celestus: this relates to the situation, JC HRs are not officially incharge, pspjohn is.
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: "Owen and SS both agreed on the time and place of the FB
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: How can oyu deny that?
!Bobosaid/ST/Officer: Oh
Celestus: What has owen and ss agreeing on a place/time of FB got to do with this?
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Celestus is not online. Celestus
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 14873
11 Apr 2013 08:42 PM
@Bion

Which doesn't explain how WIJ won. If WIJ are able to offer a FB at any point, so should JC be able to.
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PLOOBER33 is not online. PLOOBER33
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Total Posts: 7513
11 Apr 2013 08:42 PM
JC is PSPJohn's clan. Not the property of the people in JC Immortals. WIJ and JC agreed to a fight on the 20th. WIJ backed out of it.

By this regard and according to the nature of Raid wins counting as PRESTIGE ONLY, WIJ effectively surrendered.
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cashpop is not online. cashpop
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Total Posts: 2984
11 Apr 2013 08:45 PM
Because you know, we can totally ignore the private discussions owen and SS has with the JC HRs.

Ain't that right, ploober?

Effectively surrender. Rubbish.
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LordVydrak is not online. LordVydrak
Joined: 16 Jul 2011
Total Posts: 28831
11 Apr 2013 08:45 PM
"Because you know, we can totally ignore the private discussions owen and SS has with the JC HRs."

They weren't private if you know about it.
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PLOOBER33 is not online. PLOOBER33
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Total Posts: 7513
11 Apr 2013 08:46 PM
You get me the chatlogs that both JC and WIJ agree are real and we can talk about proof. I am going off of public documents and disclosures.
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Celestus is not online. Celestus
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 14873
11 Apr 2013 08:46 PM
cashpop

That is what SS argues. He is the only decision maker within WIJ, as he states in the other thread I linked in my original post. I suggest you take this argument up with SS not us.
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bioniclehero is not online. bioniclehero
Joined: 27 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 2185
11 Apr 2013 08:47 PM
Who originally broke the rules?

Who cheated?

Answer that, and then you'll see why we get any sort of upper hand in the decisions of the outcome of the war.
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Vyrkar is not online. Vyrkar
Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Total Posts: 4592
11 Apr 2013 08:48 PM
I see no point this. The war is over. JC AA'ed war ceased, WIJ gave them a second chance, but they backed out. Now the only thing you guys are KEEP repeating is that "April 20th, was the official final battle date"...
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KingOfFencing is not online. KingOfFencing
Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Total Posts: 4475
11 Apr 2013 08:49 PM
Just do the FB on 20th and get it done
i want a good laught
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cashpop is not online. cashpop
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Total Posts: 2984
11 Apr 2013 08:50 PM
You argue that WIJ cannot call a win since the original thread states that 'THE WAR WILL CEASE" if there are any AA's.

You are going off by that technicality.

What I am arguing is that things can change. The thread was not set in stone.

Private discussions between SS and owen with the JC HRs could have changed up the rules.

So that hurts your argument a bit

We can't really prove anything here

And obviously, I want this FB. I want this to end. It's stupid.

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Celestus is not online. Celestus
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 14873
11 Apr 2013 08:50 PM
'Answer that, and then you'll see why we get any sort of upper hand in the decisions of the outcome of the war.'

JC broke the rules first, nowhere in the agreement does it say, 'whoever breaks the first rule doesn't get to make a decision'.


'I see no point this. The war is over. JC AA'ed war ceased, WIJ gave them a second chance, but they backed out. Now the only thing you guys are KEEP repeating is that "April 20th, was the official final battle date"...'

Well done, but doesn't explain why it is wrong.
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PLOOBER33 is not online. PLOOBER33
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Total Posts: 7513
11 Apr 2013 08:50 PM
Well according to the original rules posted by SilentSwords I suppose it depends on a few variables.


A) Was JC admin abuse really occurring and went unpunished to the best of PSPjohn's Ability? People were demoted and exiled, but it is important to note that from his vacation John, you may have every intention of punishing all admin abuse to comply with raid rules, is unable to. He should at least be given this chance to deal with it. Furthermore the act of so called admin abuse that caused the conditional declaration of victory is easily arguable to be NOT ADMIN ABUSE because victory was already achieved by WIJ via surrender by JC high rank.

B) If SS was counting raids as giving an advantage and not just for prestige, technically WIJ has been breaking the rules all along and just hadn't made the information public.
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PLOOBER33 is not online. PLOOBER33
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Total Posts: 7513
11 Apr 2013 08:51 PM
And actually cashpop, thats not at all what I am arguing.
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Celestus is not online. Celestus
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 14873
11 Apr 2013 08:52 PM
'Private discussions between SS and owen with the JC HRs could have changed up the rules.

So that hurts your argument a bit'

That hurts the argument of SilentSwords, seeing as it was he, which I will say again, said only the group owner's decision is the official one. You can see this in the thread I have linked in my original post. If you have a problem, argue it with SS.
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cashpop is not online. cashpop
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Total Posts: 2984
11 Apr 2013 08:52 PM
I wasn't referring to you, ploober.
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PLOOBER33 is not online. PLOOBER33
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Total Posts: 7513
11 Apr 2013 08:52 PM
Furthermore, unless PSPjohn agrees that the rules were changed, it doesn't matter one bit what owen and SS and JC high ranks decided on.
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PLOOBER33 is not online. PLOOBER33
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Total Posts: 7513
11 Apr 2013 08:53 PM
Then cashpop do not ignore what I am saying. I am not operating out of loopholes, I am operating out of the wording that SS used to clearly describe the rules and conditions which WIJ is now breaking.
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Celestus is not online. Celestus
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 14873
11 Apr 2013 08:54 PM
'B) If SS was counting raids as giving an advantage and not just for prestige, technically WIJ has been breaking the rules all along and just hadn't made the information public.'

Good point there.
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PLOOBER33 is not online. PLOOBER33
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Total Posts: 7513
11 Apr 2013 08:55 PM
Targeted exploits and admin abusing will not be tolerated by either side.
-SS


This also would indicate that is PSPJohn doesn't tolerate it and acts on these other acts of AA that are now being proven apparently, JC is officially not tolerating the AA and is still in the right for this war.

WIJ needs to give them the official FB on the agreed upon date or they are backing out of their contract.
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cashpop is not online. cashpop
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Total Posts: 2984
11 Apr 2013 08:55 PM
Well who are you to say what powers the JC HRs have, ploober?

Maybe they got more power than we realized.



Anyway, I am not into politics and I'll just wait for SS to make something up.

Let's see how far this can go.
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Rovert10 is not online. Rovert10
Joined: 18 Aug 2009
Total Posts: 2465
11 Apr 2013 08:58 PM
Now I am not part of WIJ HICOM but this is speaking off being in WIJ since day 1 of its opening and being one of the first and oldest HRs within the group.

The conflict on conditions was eventually settled in having the FB today at 4PM EST.

However, supposibly WIJ was very forceful in their push for it which may have been their reasoning to pull the conditional victory out. To force JC into this awkward situation.
Can't say I agree with this act if it is true but it was agreed upon by the JC immortals.

Thus previous conditions including the conditional victory are thrown out the window to be settled on this FB.

Then the issue with pspjohn1's orders comes along to not fight, with the reason that he wasn't there to partpicipate supposibly. Idk if that's the actual one or not since that's all I got from threads and such.
Now the JC has their immortals and elite division to fight and lead for JC should a final battle occur. The reasoning that pspjohn1 is not there thus they can't fight seemed irrelavent.
SS and Owen do not fight, they just left it to the Brigadiers/Colonels and STs to do it for them. I don't see why JC can't do the same.

This comes to point then, of what does WIJ do at this time.
Do we wait for pspjohn1 to come back and risk getting into another awkward situation with him? Since they do have a history with questionable declarations of wins regardless of the results and situations.
Or do we just declare the victory and deal with controversy now and let it blow off later?
Either way WIJ comes out as the winner practically guarentee'd no matter how it went.

What tipped WIJ HICOM to just end it now I believe is that risking another situtation with pspjohn1 is not really desirable and too probable for their liking.
However ending it now would produces a generally positive response by the community. JC's reputation is not high by any standard and that C&G and the clan community in general would accept WIJ's declaration and be done with it. Whatever arguements would blow off within a week or so.

Add to the fact that JC's response against it has been relatively weak with only a few Generals speaking it. The Immortals just sat back and watched.
This only furthered the validity of our delcaration of victory.
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PLOOBER33 is not online. PLOOBER33
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Total Posts: 7513
11 Apr 2013 08:58 PM
If we are mutually applying what SS expects of his own clan to John's Cobras, then nobody but PSPjohn can make the decisions relevant to this case. He publicly stated that even in his own clan Owen doesn't really make the decisions official for WIJ, he does. In the spirit of fairness I feel it is safe to apply this to JC as well.

Go ahead and wait for SS to make something up. Its clear that the rhetoric and logic they use to describe the situation relies on some pretty unrealistic definitions and ideas that I think most clans would not share. See my thread I posted on page one.
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GGGGG14 is not online. GGGGG14
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Total Posts: 25344
11 Apr 2013 08:59 PM
tl:dr
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cashpop is not online. cashpop
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Total Posts: 2984
11 Apr 2013 09:02 PM
ploober, you are going by with technicalities.

Like saying that "I will not tolerate people that tolerate hitting someone" and the person can hit someone and say "I hit him, but I don't tolerate it".

That doesn't make sense.

"feeling" isnt the right way.

Take for example how other nations act politically. Some have one guy making all the decisions while the others have a party to make one.

SS claims to be the official fella, but what about JC? Maybe John gave some power to the JC HRs?

If not, then the JC HRs were idiots to make such decisions.

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