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Re: An example of the limits of mathematics.

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GameMakerCJ is not online. GameMakerCJ
Joined: 26 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 19
01 Mar 2013 03:23 PM
Infinity in mathematics is an example of how our perspective of the universe is flawed.

Let me give you an example.

According to most scientists, the universe is infinite. This would also mean that there is an infinite amount of black holes in the universe. Now, there are not black holes everywhere in the universe. If there were, we wouldn't be alive. To make my point, there is an infinite amount of particles in the universe as well. Most would agree that there's more particles in the universe than black holes. But they're both infinite?

Does this mean that one manner of infinite is greater than another, even though they're theoretically equivalent?

What do I think?

Infinite is an illusion.

Math is a tiny gateway to understand the most basic of concepts in the universe. In order to grasp the more sophisticated aspects, we must dig deeper.

Or perhaps we can't. Perhaps human understanding is limited to math. Perhaps our understanding can never reach the level of breaking past the basic fundamentals.
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zoomypie2 is not online. zoomypie2
Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Total Posts: 8050
01 Mar 2013 03:23 PM
If I were to post my thesis on time travel you'd be ashamed of that miniscule ammount of text.
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Clickable is not online. Clickable
Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Total Posts: 5517
01 Mar 2013 03:24 PM
610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761610016069515476769243690974136974362924365640144434302069436909017523972305602137965120397562108736520981356970218512592`7-5923650`27356072330569862`34r9`2365987`237561287512690561726507143659712659612385795072360782650172465921365071246501748365193865871436509182645974365081364975613497654376594736529076534021761
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GameMakerCJ is not online. GameMakerCJ
Joined: 26 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 19
01 Mar 2013 03:25 PM
Time travel can't be understood by humans. Our feeble minds get stuck behind paradoxes.
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zoomypie2 is not online. zoomypie2
Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Total Posts: 8050
01 Mar 2013 03:28 PM
Give me two minutes..
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stuntddude is not online. stuntddude
Joined: 03 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1630
01 Mar 2013 03:30 PM
"According to most scientists, the universe is infinite."

Most scientists also aren't cosmologists.

No boundary =/= infinite

"Does this mean that one manner of infinite is greater than another, even though they're theoretically equivalent?"

Yes it does and they are not theoretically equivalent. It's a well-known fact of mathematics that some infinities are larger than others.

"Time travel can't be understood by humans."

Prove it.

"Our feeble minds"

Feeble compared to what?
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GameMakerCJ is not online. GameMakerCJ
Joined: 26 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 19
01 Mar 2013 03:31 PM
For example, the Grandfather Paradox. You may believe in multi-dimensional travel, but this is a bit unbelievable.
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Crazc3 is not online. Crazc3
Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 287
01 Mar 2013 03:32 PM
> infinite is an illusion

or it means infinite dumb-ass

~Toothy Candy Reindeer~
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stuntddude is not online. stuntddude
Joined: 03 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1630
01 Mar 2013 03:32 PM
"You may believe in multi-dimensional travel, but this is a bit unbelievable."

That's a very contradictory statement.
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GameMakerCJ is not online. GameMakerCJ
Joined: 26 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 19
01 Mar 2013 03:35 PM
So, according to you, if something has not limit, it's not infinite? It's finite?

To say that Infinite =/= Infinite is mathematically incorrect, since they both have no boundary, therefore have an equivalent value.

Time travel cannot be understood by the human mind. We are faced with far too many unexplained paradoxes.
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Varese is not online. Varese
Joined: 01 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 1685
01 Mar 2013 03:37 PM
"According to most scientists, the universe is infinite."

thats not true at all....

the universe is finite. a very very very large majority of scientists agree with this.
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Varese is not online. Varese
Joined: 01 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 1685
01 Mar 2013 03:37 PM
that's why the universe is supposedly rapidly expanding
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Varese is not online. Varese
Joined: 01 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 1685
01 Mar 2013 03:39 PM
"that's why the universe is supposedly rapidly expanding"

i guess i should say that the universe isnt rapidly expanding as a result of it being finite but that the fact its rapidly expanding is proof its finite..
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stuntddude is not online. stuntddude
Joined: 03 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1630
01 Mar 2013 03:41 PM
"So, according to you, if something has not limit, it's not infinite?"

No limit =/= no boundary.

I'm trying to be clear by using actual scientific terminology here, I'm not just pulling this stuff out of my behind and I don't appreciate when other people do either.

"To say that Infinite =/= Infinite is mathematically incorrect, since they both have no boundary"

Infinities have no boundary. That does not mean that everything that has no boundaries is infinite. That would be a logical fallacy.

"Time travel cannot be understood by the human mind."

I asked you to justify the statement, not to repeat it.
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abobao is not online. abobao
Joined: 26 Jun 2010
Total Posts: 8755
01 Mar 2013 03:41 PM
linear dysfunction posthumous malleable serendipity conspiracy psoriasis!!!
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stuntddude is not online. stuntddude
Joined: 03 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1630
01 Mar 2013 03:43 PM
"the fact its rapidly expanding is proof its finite."

No, not really. Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure that doesn't work as there are ways around it. There are ways to show that the universe is probably finite without a boundary, but I'm pretty sure that isn't one of them.
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Varese is not online. Varese
Joined: 01 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 1685
01 Mar 2013 03:44 PM
"No, not really. Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure that doesn't work as there are ways around it. There are ways to show that the universe is probably finite without a boundary, but I'm pretty sure that isn't one of them."

only finite things can expand...

Adjective
Limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate: "an infinite number of stars".

if it has an endless of limitless amount of space it cannot expand.
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Varese is not online. Varese
Joined: 01 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 1685
01 Mar 2013 03:45 PM
*endless and limitless
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stuntddude is not online. stuntddude
Joined: 03 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1630
01 Mar 2013 03:48 PM
"if it has an endless of limitless amount of space it cannot expand."

Yes, it can, and this goes back to the "some infinities are bigger than others" point.

If I say that my scope includes all numbers from 1 to 2, that's an infinite amount of numbers. If I think include all numbers from 2 to 3 as well, I have just expanded (in this case, doubled) my infinity. Thus, it can be done.
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sdfgw is not online. sdfgw
Top 50 Poster
Joined: 08 Jan 2009
Total Posts: 41681
01 Mar 2013 03:51 PM
"Does this mean that one manner of infinite is greater than another, even though they're theoretically equivalent? "

yes

/thread
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Varese is not online. Varese
Joined: 01 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 1685
01 Mar 2013 03:53 PM
"If I say that my scope includes all numbers from 1 to 2, that's an infinite amount of numbers. If I think include all numbers from 2 to 3 as well, I have just expanded (in this case, doubled) my infinity. Thus, it can be done."

you didnt double your infinity. they both have an endless amount of numbers therefore you did not add any extra amount of numbers and did not expand it. you added new combinations of numbers but not a greater amount and i don't see how that helps you.
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Varese is not online. Varese
Joined: 01 Feb 2013
Total Posts: 1685
01 Mar 2013 04:01 PM
and comparing the universe to a set of numbers is sort of DUMB because the universe is sort of like a physical thing while numbers are sort of like an abstract idea
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mrpricetoyou is not online. mrpricetoyou
Joined: 25 Nov 2011
Total Posts: 5160
01 Mar 2013 04:03 PM
Infinite means it goes on forever, since it's not a physical number but a theory both can be infinite.
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stuntddude is not online. stuntddude
Joined: 03 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1630
01 Mar 2013 04:05 PM
"and comparing the universe to a set of numbers is sort of DUMB because the universe is sort of like a physical thing while numbers are sort of like an abstract idea"

You just called 99% of physics (attempting to describe the universe mathmatically) "dumb." Good job.
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cheated is not online. cheated
Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 7073
01 Mar 2013 04:06 PM
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