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Re: WE MARS NOW

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SCARFACIAL is not online. SCARFACIAL
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
Total Posts: 7970
06 Aug 2012 03:31 PM
What is everybody's thoughts on the recent launch of Curiosity, the $2.5 billion rover the US sent to Mars?

Personally, I think we should be cutting such programs until we pay off the $15 trillion we owe in debt.
It could be beneficial to study Mars, but I feel the United States should prioritize and put such explorations off until we're not so buried in debt.
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DrAgonmoray is not online. DrAgonmoray
Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Total Posts: 17428
06 Aug 2012 03:32 PM
i think we should print 15 trillion dollars to pay off debt lolol
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abx1 is not online. abx1
Joined: 13 Nov 2008
Total Posts: 4979
06 Aug 2012 03:34 PM
>DrAgonmoray

And crash the economy and have to spend even more money and get in debt all over again? Not a wise choice.
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BlueTaslem is not online. BlueTaslem
Joined: 11 May 2008
Total Posts: 11060
06 Aug 2012 03:35 PM
If you have studied any history or economics, you would know that eliminating the debt isn't a necessary thing, and especially that a space program is the LAST thing we should be cutting.
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Jlobblet is not online. Jlobblet
Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Total Posts: 587
06 Aug 2012 03:35 PM
Eurocrisis becomes Americrisis

~if not ok then return end
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DEADLESSZOMBIE is not online. DEADLESSZOMBIE
Joined: 30 May 2011
Total Posts: 30
06 Aug 2012 03:36 PM
O_O we might find aliens the shape of noobs O_O
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3543 is not online. 3543
Joined: 03 Dec 2011
Total Posts: 121
06 Aug 2012 03:37 PM
I think money shouldn't exist. People should focus on advancing in the state of everyone's health, comfort, and advancing in scientific discoveries. We don't need money. Money just gives us a fake goal to get to. Money is fake. Money has no real value. If an 'alien' species came to ear, they wouldn't care about our money. Or money is worth however much the weird cotton paper mixture they made is worth. Everything only has a value based on how it can be used. Besides that, it's just what we agree as its value.

Basically, I don't care about debt or money. We're trying to do more science stuff here. Should anyone care about money? Someday this planet will be gone. Maybe we can figure out how to get off it and survive somewhere else, if we don't restrict ourselves with 'money.'
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SCARFACIAL is not online. SCARFACIAL
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
Total Posts: 7970
06 Aug 2012 03:38 PM
@Taslem: Indeed paying off debt may not be necessary. But surely there's a better use for the billions of dollars going into space exploration. Spending 2.5 billion dollars on a rover which (assuming everything goes perfectly) will spend two years taking pictures of rocks in a 3 mile radius seems a bit silly to me. My point is why use the money on other things?
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Legend26 is not online. Legend26
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 10586
06 Aug 2012 03:40 PM
I could say the same about the Olympics.
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BlueTaslem is not online. BlueTaslem
Joined: 11 May 2008
Total Posts: 11060
06 Aug 2012 03:40 PM
The interest on the debt increases more than that a day; this is already after something like 70% funding cuts. We need to cut spending on new nukes and massive military increases, as well as raise tariffs and even out taxes (ie, remove tax cuts but reduce overall taxes).

The space program employs many people in really good jobs which will let them find awesome jobs if they leave; it provides futures to thousands of workers (well, it used to be thousands, until people with your thinking cut all the funding and fired everyone this year).
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NecroBumpist is not online. NecroBumpist
Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Total Posts: 4198
06 Aug 2012 03:42 PM
>But surely there's a better use for the billions of dollars going into space exploration. Spending 2.5 billion dollars on a rover which (assuming everything goes perfectly) will spend two years taking pictures of rocks in a 3 mile radius seems a bit silly to me. My point is why use the money on other things?


lul.
v=CbIZU8cQWXc
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Techboy6601 is not online. Techboy6601
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Total Posts: 4914
06 Aug 2012 05:55 PM
I used to thing the same as what 3543 did. Why is money there? I thought that at the point we're in we could simply make robots do all the work for us, and then make robots that built other robots which essentially cuts off the need for humans to do any work at all to do what they want.

But then I got into more advanced thinking. If money is fake, what exactly is our purpose? The truth is, there is none. We have no purpose at all to exist, we just do. So the only thing we can do is set goals for ourselves and achieve them.

I think the main thing everyone should be focusing on is getting manufacturing back to their individual countries. America shouldn't rely on China or any other country for the most basic of things. We should build, grow, raise, and discover anything we need and not let some other country do it for us. Because you know what? If for some reason China decided to do an embargo on the US, we are essentially defenseless. Yes, we have farms, yes we have factories, but do we have enough? No. We don't have enough manufacturing to be self-sufficient. And that means that all China has to do to take over the US is simply embargo them and then start a war. Would it be nuclear? Probably. Who would win? Nobody. Because we would all kill ourselves in the process.

I can't believe nobody in the government hasn't though of this yet. How many jobs would this create? How many people taken off the streets into nice houses they can afford to keep? How many unemployed people having their financial future secured without worrying about more economy crashes?

My god people are stupid.
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stravant is not online. stravant
Forum Moderator
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Total Posts: 2893
06 Aug 2012 06:14 PM
@techboy

First problem:
For one, you have to take into account the fact that globalization of the supply chain is so embedded that it would be suicide for any country to even try to disconnect itself from everyone else entirely; it just can't happen anymore. Consider that many products, in various stages of production and their basic raw materials, may have crossed the pacific _multiple times_ before they are completed, and parts of even the simplest electronics may have come from 100's of suppliers scattered all across the world.


Second problem:
Even if you somehow manged to ignore or solve all of the supply problems, you're going to have to change the consumerism culture in the US and other western countries before anything will work. The reason that goods are so plentiful and cheap, allowing the creation of a throw-away culture, is that you have an army of poorly paid workers in terrible conditions creating that stuff in developing countries.

If you want to change that you're going to have to convince people to basically "have less stuff". If you want to create all of that stuff in the US it's going to cost a _lot_ more, and hence people are going to be a lot less able to afford new outfits of clothing every 3 seconds or new cars every year (well, they can't even afford it right now, but they're buying anyways). And that is not an easy thing to change.


Third problem:
It's going to have a very significant productivity cost doing this. Just as the factory system makes creation of goods more efficient on the micro-economic scale, there's a similar effect on the macro-economic scale. Having two countries each specialized in production of one thing trading with eachother will generate far more overall productivity than having each make what they need.


And I could list a few more too. Basically, protectionism just does not work in the modern global economy.
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Techboy6601 is not online. Techboy6601
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Total Posts: 4914
06 Aug 2012 06:27 PM
Reply to first problem: Yes, I agree that you can't take the entire manufacturing business entirely on one country, but it would be very good for us to stop relying on them so much. I mean, they make American flags in China! It's totally unbelievable!

Reply to second problem: This would be a very good thing to change anyways. Many Americans don't realize what they have and don't respect anyone at the very least; this is bad for human society itself. Yes, it's not easy, but once it happens the country will have a better future as a whole.

"Having two countries each specialized in production of one thing trading with eachother will generate far more overall productivity than having each make what they need."

But having one country rely on another for its survival is not a good idea at all.
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stravant is not online. stravant
Forum Moderator
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Total Posts: 2893
06 Aug 2012 06:45 PM
"But having one country rely on another for its survival is not a good idea at all."

That is not the situation however. Yes, everything is interconnected, but that is not at all the same as a strong relationship between a specific two countries, which is not happening. Here are some recent US trade numbers for the top 10 trading partners:

(Imports for Consumption)    (Domestic Exports)  (Trade Balance)
1    --Canada    $316,396.5     $233,773.6       ($82,622.9)
2    --China     $398,466.8     $96,897.8        ($301,569.1)
3    --Mexico    $262,671.0     $159,910.0       ($102,761.0)
4    --Japan     $127,901.2     $61,408.7        ($66,492.5)
5    --Germany   $96,539.2      $44,240.2        ($52,299.1)
6    --UK        $51,044.8      $49,984.5        ($1,060.3)
7    --Korea     $56,006.0      $41,311.0        ($14,695.1)
8    --Brazil    $30,367.9      $37,274.8        ($6,906.9)
9    --Taiwan    $41,213.3      $23,774.7        ($17,438.6)
10   --France    $39,596.2      $25,360.6        ($14,235.6) 

You can see that there is no real dominant partner (yeah, china is big, but it's not as though it's 50% or something like that), and _even those_ top 10 still only make up around 60% of US trade.
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stravant is not online. stravant
Forum Moderator
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Total Posts: 2893
06 Aug 2012 06:47 PM
"Reply to second problem: ... Yes, it's not easy, but once it happens the country will have a better future as a whole."

That's assuming that the change does happen, as opposed to the economy tanking entirely when you implement the changes, and never really recovering on the world stage.
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Candymaniac is not online. Candymaniac
Joined: 08 Oct 2009
Total Posts: 8985
06 Aug 2012 06:47 PM
Every country is interlinked...

☜▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬☜☆☞▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬☞ - Candymaniac, a highly reactive substance.
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Techboy6601 is not online. Techboy6601
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Total Posts: 4914
06 Aug 2012 06:48 PM
In that case, US trade should be 60%, not the other way around. We should rely more on ourselves rather than others.
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BlueTaslem is not online. BlueTaslem
Joined: 11 May 2008
Total Posts: 11060
06 Aug 2012 06:48 PM
We do need more manufacturing + designing happening in America, but we can't hope to replace imports. We just need to start exporting more (mercantilism). Of course, robots would work fine for that.
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stravant is not online. stravant
Forum Moderator
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Total Posts: 2893
06 Aug 2012 06:51 PM
"In that case, US trade should be 60%, not the other way around. We should rely more on ourselves rather than others."

What? I don't think you understood what I was saying. Those top 10 are only 60% or so _of foreign trade_ that the US does. I'm not really sure what you're saying.
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Techboy6601 is not online. Techboy6601
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Total Posts: 4914
06 Aug 2012 07:16 PM
Ohhhh. I thought you meant they were 60% of the US's entire market. Nevermind.
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