Creatant
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:14 PM |
I noticed the massive flame war that went on over this statement a while ago, but never really pitched in my opinion on it. So, what I'm going to do now, is give you guys some explanations and examples as to how I see this. Please read everything before posting.
++ Communism and Fascism are two separate ideas. This is not a false premise, as I am using the concrete terms.
- Communism is an economical ideology on its own. This has absolutely nothing to do with government power. - Fascism is an ideology that deals with government power and extreme nationalism. This has absolutely nothing to do with economics.
++ What needs to be understood about the statement, "Communism = Fascism" is that it can be interpreted in more than one way. I will list two ways that can make a major difference in how the statement is seen.
- In a concrete sense, this directly states that Communism IS Fascism. It states that the definitions are exactly the same, which they are not. It states that one can be substituted for the other at any time, which they can't be concretely (e.g. "______ is an economically oriented idea" where Communism is the only correct term to insert in contrast to Fascism), it states that they are EXACTLY the same, as this is what the "=" means.
- In an abstract sense, this can imply ("imply" being the key word, as it does not state it directly) that Communism CAUSES/ IS AN EFFECT OF Fascism. It can also imply that Communism and Fascism are paired together like a bundle package. However, both of these can't be concrete statements, because the two terms are simply not equivalent, and the implications are not 100% true due to the possibility that one can exist without the other.
++ From what I have pointed out, we can see that Communism =/= Fascism in a CONCRETE sense. Now, please do not confuse "concrete" and "abstract" for their physical meanings where "concrete" is a physical state and "abstract" is an idea. When I say "concrete" in this thread, I am referring to the literal terms (the 100% solid idea), and when I say "abstract", I am referring to the implications of these terms (how we ASSUME they play out). Anyway, we see that "Communism = Fascism" CAN be a true statement, but only in an abstract sense that does not literally mean "equivalent". The "=" in this statement must be a secondary implication such as cause/effect or yin/yang for it to even possibly be true.
***Relating this to other things***
+ These may not be very good examples, because, obviously, the terms have different roles. However, the points that I'm trying to highlight are still there.
- By itself, Communism is not equivalent to Fascism. The literal ideas are not equivalent or even categorized the same way. This works in the same way that Cold weather is not equivalent to snow. Literally, snow and cold weather are two separate things, where at least one can exist without the other. Now, when we introduce these terms to abstract implications, we can start to see how this type of statement can be true.
Cold Weather =/= Snow
Cold Weather + Precipitation = Snow
*Please don't try to argue that "snow is precipitation." That's not the point. Just talking about water in the sky.
- You'll notice that another factor had to be introduced for the statement to be (sometimes) true. The same must apply to Communism and Fascism in an abstract sense:
Communism =/= Fascism
Communism + [other factor] = Fascism
- There is more than one other factor that goes into the whole jumbled mess of abstract definitions, but let's pretend that there is only one. Attempting to use logic, why not try inserting "Dictator with Fascist ideology"?
+ We must recognize that one can exist without the other on paper. Even if you don't believe it has happened before in history, you must understand that there can be a nation under Fascism that does not operate under an economic system that is Communism. The concrete and literal terms stump the "Communism = Fascism" statement, but the abstract usage of an equality sign can imply that Communism and Fascism often exist together or have a cause/effect relationship. If want to say "Communism = Fascism", you are incorrect in the literal concrete sense, but you may or may not be right when abstractly using the "=".
Thank you for your brief amount of time,
- Javier N'Dyaie
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:18 PM |
| Not entirely true, communism has factors like the Vanguard Party, Internationalist Struggle (which opposes Fascism) "dictatorship of the Proletariat, etc, while Fascism has the "superior race, and elitism, which is contrary to communism. A fascist state can be Socialist, but a communist country cannot be Fascist. |
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Creatant
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:23 PM |
| Those are abstract implications that add on to the concrete terms. |
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:23 PM |
| No country will ever be communist, but every country that claims to be communist is totalitarian. Fascism is more blackshirt stuff. |
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Creatant
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:27 PM |
"but every country that claims to be communist is totalitarian."
I don't believe that totalitarianism has anything to do with economics in the concrete sense. These are the type of things I'm talking about; paper reality meeting the physical and emotional reality. |
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:33 PM |
| No, Creatant, they're not "Abstract terms", they're too often overlooked variables that are what makes Communism "Communism" |
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Creatant
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:38 PM |
| They're abstract variables in the real world. However, I'm not quite certain what plane we're discussing this on. This really isn't going anywhere unless you point out the statement in my original post that you are arguing against. |
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:38 PM |
| There are just too many isms on the extreme left, and all of them suck. I believe our current situation is good. |
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Creatant
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:43 PM |
"(which opposes Fascism)"
-- Looks to me like you're arguing against me because you thought that I'm saying "Communism = Fascism". In fact, if you ARE talking about the concrete terms, you're agreeing with me, not disagreeing. I said that Communism =/= Fascism in a concrete sense. You say you aren't talking about the abstract sense, yes? |
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:51 PM |
| I was disagreeing on how you said that a Fascist nation could be communist. |
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Creatant
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| 25 Jul 2012 01:58 PM |
| Well, I was referring to more about how the implications are different from the literal concrete definitions. |
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Creatant
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| 25 Jul 2012 02:00 PM |
| A person who is abstractly Fascist can lead a nation that is abstractly Communist because the abstract implications tend to go against what the real concrete terms are. |
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pepper0
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| 25 Jul 2012 02:33 PM |
| Finally, someone with a brain that understands reality. |
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| 25 Jul 2012 02:38 PM |
Communism is an economical idea, BUT, they do have some form of governmental rules.
Fascism is a governmental idea and only has a few economical laws.
However, these two are similar as in that Fascism and communism both gain money only for the government.
☜▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬☜☆☞▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬☞ - Candymaniac, a highly reactive substance. |
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pepper0
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| 25 Jul 2012 03:00 PM |
But under Fascism, the government only allows free trade as long as companies agree with the government policy.
Therefore Fascism is the exact opposite of capitalism.
also both Communism and Fascism require the creation of the perfect human. |
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| 25 Jul 2012 03:10 PM |
Communism is an economical ideology on its own. This has absolutely nothing to do with government power.
____
Technically, communism has everything to do with government power. Marxism says that communism is stateless.
Hopefully this won't disrupt your logic. I don't believe it will. |
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| 25 Jul 2012 03:12 PM |
also both Communism and Fascism require the creation of the perfect human.
_____
Fascism explicitly and communism implicitly. Just thought I'd make that distinction, haha. |
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pepper0
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| 25 Jul 2012 03:18 PM |
| But its still finding the perfect human. |
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| 25 Jul 2012 03:18 PM |
Meanwhile, while I'm in the mood to amend everyone's arguments, I'll add that there's a similarity between communism and fascism (and parliamentary systems) that has gone unmentioned:
- Communism, Fascism, and Parliamentary States all share the same constitutional order.
That is, each of those systems bases its legitimacy on the same claim: put us in power, and we will maximize your welfare. These governments tended to centralize power (Think Teddy through Reagan), pitted themselves against the free market, and tried to enforce moral norms through legislation.
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pepper0
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| 25 Jul 2012 03:20 PM |
Lets just agree
Communism and Fascism are both equally terrible systems and we should find a way to stay clear from them. |
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| 25 Jul 2012 03:31 PM |
| Pepper fascism and capitalism are the worse though |
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| 25 Jul 2012 03:40 PM |
| And pepper, how many times have people "changed their nature" over history, how come we suddenly stopped being racist, or suddenly stopped believing in Gods, but we still HAVE to be greedy? what makes you think that won't evolve? |
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| 25 Jul 2012 03:54 PM |
but we still HAVE to be greedy
______
Because that endows us with an unprecedented opportunity for economic freedom. |
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| 25 Jul 2012 04:20 PM |
| In my opinion communism was a natural response to the crappy conditions workers were in in the late 1800s. |
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