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Re: Socialism

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superdimensionmaster is not online. superdimensionmaster
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Total Posts: 8387
19 Jul 2012 10:04 PM
I am a socialist. Argue with me. (I don't use euphemisms.)
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Creatant is not online. Creatant
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Total Posts: 3158
19 Jul 2012 10:06 PM
Great system, but you can't apply it to a world like this one.
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jbg23 is not online. jbg23
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Total Posts: 2163
19 Jul 2012 10:07 PM
Which form(s) of socialism do you support?
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superdimensionmaster is not online. superdimensionmaster
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Total Posts: 8387
19 Jul 2012 10:15 PM
@Creatant - Communism is a great idea that won't work a a world like this one. That's only one form of socialism. There are tons of forms of socialism that don't work and plenty that seem to be working.

@jbg23 - Democratic socialism through revolutionary means sounds ideal, but no one has gotten there quite yet. After that would be the related, but more capitalist social democracy, which is pretty common in Europe.
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jbg23 is not online. jbg23
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Total Posts: 2163
19 Jul 2012 10:17 PM
European countries have a stronger market element than many people give them credit for. Scandinavia in particular is assisted by a brilliant judiciary.

One must also remember that America has the highest per-capita welfare payments in the world.

Just some things to keep in mind; I'm not (yet) trying to impugn anything. :P
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Creatant is not online. Creatant
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Total Posts: 3158
19 Jul 2012 10:18 PM
"There are tons of forms of socialism that don't work and plenty that seem to be working."

Examples?
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jbg23 is not online. jbg23
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Total Posts: 2163
19 Jul 2012 10:21 PM
I'd like the ones that don't work, in particular. I'm curious to hear your opinion on that matter. :D
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Creatant is not online. Creatant
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Total Posts: 3158
19 Jul 2012 10:25 PM
I support Socialism in small groups of people that are trying to survive. If someone kills a boar, that meat better be for all of us.
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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
19 Jul 2012 10:58 PM
What about the one that went through to work to kill that boar?





Socialism: everyone, a slave to everyone else
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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
19 Jul 2012 10:59 PM
Socialism is the worst system to ever devised by the mind of man. You could say the same about capitalism, though its by far better than socialism.
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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
19 Jul 2012 11:04 PM
There is a reason why Scandinavian Countries have not become a superpower within the last 100 years.

If I worked hard for something, I will make sure no one gets a piece of it, but me because I worked for that goal.
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superdimensionmaster is not online. superdimensionmaster
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Total Posts: 8387
19 Jul 2012 11:05 PM
Social democracy seems to be working, which I've already stated. Communism in its true form seems to be impossible to even implement, and anarchist socialism seems a little too idealistic about human nature. Any economic/political religion-based system is out of the question since I believe in seperation of church in state (OMG ATHEOCRACY) and the same goes with nationalism since it basically is a religion. Totalitarianism is also an obvious failure and I strongly support democracy. Anarchy works well for a group of 10 people, as does communism and all sorts of stuff that doesn't work in real life for larger groups.

I probably can't link to Wikipedia without getting a temporary ban, so I'll quote it instead:

Communism definition:

"Marxist communism refers to classless, stateless social organization based upon common ownership of the means of production and to a variety of movements acting in the name of this goal which are influenced by the thought of Karl Marx."

In other words, it thinks all people can actually be beneficial to each other without use of force (and thus is anarchic). All realistic large governments need force to keep at least some citizens in line, unfortunately. Another problem with communism is that it's revolutionary. If your ideals fail and you have a revolution, you have no chance to adapt them to what works without a massive overhaul. Evolution gives more room for trial-and-error. If you do something too idealistic and it fails, it's muuuuch easier to fix it. Communism has shown that it's already too idealistic, so the revolutions obviously caused problems (such as totalitarian "communist" states like the USSR and China).

Yes, I know I talked about communism a bunch, but it's the most "pure" form of socialism which all the other ones come from. If there's anything I left out about what I think will/won't work economically, feel free to interrogate me more and argue more.
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superdimensionmaster is not online. superdimensionmaster
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Total Posts: 8387
19 Jul 2012 11:08 PM
@pepper0 - If you can't tell, it took me a while to post my post. Socialism is a good system. Let's say you're a scientist and you discover something. You keep that knowledge to yourself and force everyone to discover it for themselves. That's capitalism. With resources, we need to build on what we all have, like with knowledge. If you work you get things, and if you don't work you don't. Capitalism denies benefits to people who work. Someone can have 3 jobs and hardly be getting by, but someone can be a billionaire with only one. Are they really working billions of times harder?
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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
19 Jul 2012 11:15 PM
Socialism good?

My dear superdimensionmaster, have you seen the streets of London lately? It is the result of government bureaucracy. Now if your talking about socialism in a stateless society, thats a different argument.


Its not capitalism that denies benefits its the over inflated government.

If you just make a system where government only creates an environment where competition can thrive, you will see how anyone who acts can find a decent job and go places where people cant even dream.
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DrCaneJralt4 is not online. DrCaneJralt4
Joined: 13 Feb 2012
Total Posts: 157
19 Jul 2012 11:16 PM
@Pepper0- In some forms you are correct, but I don't think you know the basis of Socialism. Socialism, is an economic ideology in which resources are taken and distributed. Socialism also advocates social owning over business. Basically, it is the opposite of slavery.
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Panther797 is not online. Panther797
Joined: 09 Dec 2010
Total Posts: 275
19 Jul 2012 11:20 PM
I am sorry I do not understand the socialism the communism the people say that it can not be achieved it is impossible with the people so why do they even care why do they speak I do not understand please do correct me if I am wrong
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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
19 Jul 2012 11:25 PM
On the contrary it is slavery, every man is indentured to everyone else. Thus everyone becomes lazy. I am on a crew team and I have seen this in action.

In order to carry the boat, everyone has to do it. Every person on our team is different a hight and the ground is not even. Therefore the shorter people have an advantage and don't have to carry much of the weight so they get a free ride basically. And carrying a nearly half a ton boat HURTS.


3h8O7V-WxWQ


The only cases in recorded history in which the masses that have escaped the confines of poverty had capitalism and largely free trade. The only societies that are worse are those societies that depart from that.
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DrCaneJralt4 is not online. DrCaneJralt4
Joined: 13 Feb 2012
Total Posts: 157
19 Jul 2012 11:27 PM
So when I post a link that is "Clearly made by a socialist extremist." on why Fascism=/=Communism, it is wrong. But when you put a link that is obviously posted by a Capitalist, I should accept it? I believe that is a but unfair, wouldn't you say?
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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
19 Jul 2012 11:30 PM
I'd say its fair game.
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DrCaneJralt4 is not online. DrCaneJralt4
Joined: 13 Feb 2012
Total Posts: 157
19 Jul 2012 11:31 PM
Ha, I have proven it everyone, Pepper0 is a LIBERAL!!! See, he claims it is fair to get an advantage!
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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
19 Jul 2012 11:34 PM
If you want socialism to work, you need to be in a very small group that have relatively the same interests. Sports teams, Communes, Harvard
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DrCaneJralt4 is not online. DrCaneJralt4
Joined: 13 Feb 2012
Total Posts: 157
19 Jul 2012 11:41 PM
Pepper0, you are quite the capitalist you know that?
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Creatant is not online. Creatant
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Total Posts: 3158
20 Jul 2012 12:09 AM
>Socialism: everyone, a slave to everyone else

-- Inaccurate oversimplification is invalid. Think from the stands and not from your dugout.

>What about the one that went through to work to kill that boar?

-- In a group of like 5 people, if someone kills a boar, they will be expected to feed the rest of us so that we can stay alive. This is where the "learn to work together as a team" comes in. In a survival situation, you can't seriously tell me that you would want the person who killed the boar to keep it all to themselves as you died of starvation because "Oh, capitalism is the way! We will prevail!" without sounding like an idiot.






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kadeyn55 is not online. kadeyn55
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Total Posts: 8335
20 Jul 2012 12:34 AM
Well considering Canada will probably have a Socialist Parliment in a few years, it's safe to safe it's becoming more popular
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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
20 Jul 2012 07:56 AM
@creatant


If I killed a boar, I would keep it to myself. This works in real life with other animals. If a wolf kills its prey, and if other worlves come over there are two alternatives, he lets the other wolves join in the feast or shoos them away.
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