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Re: Does true randomness exist?

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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:08 AM
If you use random without updating the random seed, the same number will be returned. That makes me think true randomness doesn't actually exist, the computer follows some kind of logic to show the random numbers.

For example, imagine we raise x to the fourth power five times, but we only show the third and the first numbers. Those numbers would look random to the users.

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TheCapacitor is not online. TheCapacitor
Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Total Posts: 7045
17 Jul 2012 11:11 AM
Nope, there's no such thing as true randomness.

The gender of someones child? Depends on which "one" reaches the egg first.
The result of rolling a die? Depends on how the die was rolled.
The random functions in any programming language? Usually based on the current time.
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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:12 AM
However, randomness can be expressed in math as "0/0", which means "any number"
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Radioaktiivinen is not online. Radioaktiivinen
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Total Posts: 18629
17 Jul 2012 11:13 AM
And your example wouldnt most likely produce random numbers, there would be some pattern or bias probably.
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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:14 AM
But those numbers WOULD look random, which is what matters.


Perhaps my example was way too simple
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TheCapacitor is not online. TheCapacitor
Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Total Posts: 7045
17 Jul 2012 11:15 AM
@Grannel: If 0/0 does mean "any number" - that still wouldn't explain is the number is random or not.
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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:20 AM
However, you can't reach a value for 0/0; -infinite < 0/0 < infinite but since you can't pick a specific value, you can just call it random
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Seranok is online. Seranok
Joined: 12 Dec 2009
Total Posts: 11083
17 Jul 2012 11:22 AM
When we speak of true randomness we are talking about the idea of "cannot be predicted, has no cause, does not repeat itself, etc"

That cannot exist in our universe. It is an abstract idea.
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Radioaktiivinen is not online. Radioaktiivinen
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Total Posts: 18629
17 Jul 2012 11:23 AM
0/0 is either 0 or infinite unless its undefined u.


and undefined!=random u.





And your example wouldnt look random, it could very well end up having the digits be the same every 2nd "random" number generated cuz it isnt properly random.
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Radioaktiivinen is not online. Radioaktiivinen
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Total Posts: 18629
17 Jul 2012 11:25 AM
@seranok

It could exist tho, if the source of the randomness is out of our reach hidden is some multidimensional quantum physics that are impossible to observe xD
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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:25 AM
Besides, it does make sense, randomness ∈ ℝ like 0/0 ∈ ℝ. Both aren't real numbers, so how do we know 0/0 ~= randomness
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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:27 AM
@Radioaktiivinen I guess I'll have to assume you're right, so far for my 15 year old math :p
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Radioaktiivinen is not online. Radioaktiivinen
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Total Posts: 18629
17 Jul 2012 11:28 AM
ummmmmmmmmmmmmm




a random number can be in some limited range? :D


so it could be always either 4 or 5, but we dont know which.

0/0 definitely is neither 4 or 5.


k.



Go away with ur scary math symbols.


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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:28 AM
Also, my example was way too simple, but you know what I meant. True randomness does not exist in programming.
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Radioaktiivinen is not online. Radioaktiivinen
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Total Posts: 18629
17 Jul 2012 11:30 AM
and 0/0 is predictable while random isnt. (idk if 0/0 has a defined value, probably not, but we know that the value will always be the same, which isnt the case for random :3)
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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:32 AM
We can't say either 0/0 = 5 or 0/0 ~= 4 because we can't treat randomness as a real number (That's what Randomess ∉ ℝ means)


Correct: I used ∈ instead of ∉ because I'm tired, my bad
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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:33 AM
That's the point, 0/0 DOES NOT have a defined value since it's not a real number!
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Radioaktiivinen is not online. Radioaktiivinen
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Total Posts: 18629
17 Jul 2012 11:33 AM
Actually from the programmers point of view it could be truly random.

If we have a really big value inside the random number generator, but the actual random number is short, a lot of information is lost so there is no way to predict the next value or possible next values in the programmers end (without access to the value inside the generator).


So its as random as real life, like we cant predict which way a coin ends up facing after dropping it from 10 km because theres too much data we dont have access to affecting the result k.
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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:36 AM
But that's not pure randomness, not being able to predict the result does not equal randomness.
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Radioaktiivinen is not online. Radioaktiivinen
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Total Posts: 18629
17 Jul 2012 11:37 AM
NOU my gam will borke if i replace every random with 0/0 goaway
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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:39 AM
Heheheh, I'm speaking about math now not programming, but I guess this is probably the wrong forum/game :p
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Radioaktiivinen is not online. Radioaktiivinen
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Total Posts: 18629
17 Jul 2012 11:41 AM
K but if the coin also ends up falling to both sides about equally as much given infinite time its random k.


Subjectively random. k.



k.
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SN0X is not online. SN0X
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Total Posts: 7277
17 Jul 2012 11:43 AM
Randoommm

x = tick()
x = x / math.random(50000,80000)
wait(math.random(1,2))
x = x / tick()
x = x * (tick()/3)


oyus
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Radioaktiivinen is not online. Radioaktiivinen
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Total Posts: 18629
17 Jul 2012 11:45 AM
u noob snox that makes it less random u dont know how to random


anyways randomness only exists if you only have access to limited information, if you have all the information theres nothing random about it as you can easily see whats going to happen next.
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Grannel is not online. Grannel
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 565
17 Jul 2012 11:45 AM
@Radio Subjectively,I'm talking about PURE randomness


@SN0X That's not random
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