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Re: Why democracy in the middle east will not work

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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
04 May 2012 07:19 PM
In order for their to be democratic freedom, their has to be economic freedom first like capitalism.

In the middle east currently, the people who have the most power own the most land and make the most money because they own that land by inheritance. Because that person was born in the right family he will earn that power. So private ownership is only recognized if you agree with the government and the government agrees with you. People can just buy their way to power

Same with socialism/communism. Economic freedom is non-existant. People can build their house anywhere but the government has every right to take it down. Therefore, that person has nowhere to live. Both of these scenarios are governments ran by thugs, thieves and bullies.

That is why America prospered, capitalism already existed. Then civil freedoms where created through democracy after the revolution, later America boomed.

So the US intervention in the middle east to 'promote democracy' clearly isn't working because politicians can just buy their way to power. The only way for true democracy to succeed is if government gets out of the free market and takes down those who crush all competition and start to run people's lives. Thats the job of government, to defend freedom and it is the job of the people and the law to make sure it stays at that job.

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mage11561 is not online. mage11561
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 13217
04 May 2012 07:21 PM
God pepper,

you're so smart ;*)
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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
04 May 2012 07:22 PM
Not sure if trolling....


...or just plain insane...
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mage11561 is not online. mage11561
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 13217
04 May 2012 07:24 PM
...or just being truthful.
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MahPizzaIsHere is not online. MahPizzaIsHere
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Total Posts: 7707
04 May 2012 07:26 PM
Communism is a stateless society.

:/
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Mrsnakeman is not online. Mrsnakeman
Joined: 09 Oct 2010
Total Posts: 2728
04 May 2012 07:28 PM
What mage said first.
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MahPizzaIsHere is not online. MahPizzaIsHere
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Total Posts: 7707
04 May 2012 07:28 PM
Most forms of "socialism" are inherently democratic.
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mage11561 is not online. mage11561
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 13217
04 May 2012 07:35 PM
"Most forms of "socialism" are inherently democratic."

Not at all.


I don't want to donate money to people who have less than me,


too bad, the government takes it anyway and spreads it around.
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MahPizzaIsHere is not online. MahPizzaIsHere
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Total Posts: 7707
04 May 2012 07:40 PM
Not at all.

____________________________________________

Awesome, you've just described the economics of it.

Now prove that a state (usually wouldn't be a state, but let's assume there is one in this case) with a socialist economy must have a political structure that isn't democratic.
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mage11561 is not online. mage11561
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 13217
04 May 2012 07:41 PM
Now prove that a state (usually wouldn't be a state, but let's assume there is one in this case) with a socialist economy must have a political structure that is democratic.

Can you? No.

Can I? No.


I was disproving that it inherently is democratic, because it's the opposite.
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Andillas is not online. Andillas
Joined: 23 May 2010
Total Posts: 5076
04 May 2012 07:42 PM
You said inherently Democratic. It isn't always such. A Socialist economy can exist under the rule of a Dictator or Monarch.
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MahPizzaIsHere is not online. MahPizzaIsHere
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Total Posts: 7707
04 May 2012 07:43 PM
You said inherently Democratic. It isn't always such. A Socialist economy can exist under the rule of a Dictator or Monarch.

_______________________

Valid point. I should have said that its economic organization has many parallels to democracy's political structure in most cases of socialism.
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MahPizzaIsHere is not online. MahPizzaIsHere
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Total Posts: 7707
04 May 2012 07:44 PM
because it's the opposite.

________________

Explain.
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mage11561 is not online. mage11561
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 13217
04 May 2012 07:45 PM
I was going to say that not everyone is going to want to give up their money so others can get free things,

but that's a generalization.
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pepper0 is not online. pepper0
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 12032
04 May 2012 07:45 PM
However, that doesn't stop the tyranny of the majority, this is where the rule of law comes in and why there has to be a government to begin with.
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buck10me is not online. buck10me
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 5526
04 May 2012 07:45 PM
You do know half of our Oil comes from Iran and Iraq right?
And they are both in the middle east right???!
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buck10me is not online. buck10me
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 5526
04 May 2012 07:46 PM
Don't leave me hangin....
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MahPizzaIsHere is not online. MahPizzaIsHere
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Total Posts: 7707
04 May 2012 07:47 PM
That "give up their money so others can get free things" idea is one of the worst definitions of socialism I've ever heard.
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mage11561 is not online. mage11561
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 13217
04 May 2012 07:48 PM
@buck,

false. We get 16% from the Persian Gulf.

Thanks.

@MahPizza,

is socialism not taking money from everyone to support those who have less, whether you like it or not?
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MahPizzaIsHere is not online. MahPizzaIsHere
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Total Posts: 7707
04 May 2012 07:49 PM
However, that doesn't stop the tyranny of the majority, this is where the rule of law comes in and why there has to be a government to begin with.

________________

True that.

There's a strong argument that it's easiest for a country to begin with a nicely structured free market and then graduate to socialism. This may be a bit ethnocentric (I believe these are mostly Americans whom argue this) but has its merits.

Capitalism isn't the only possible starting point, however.
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MahPizzaIsHere is not online. MahPizzaIsHere
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Total Posts: 7707
04 May 2012 07:49 PM
is socialism not taking money from everyone to support those who have less, whether you like it or not?

__________

No, lol.
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mage11561 is not online. mage11561
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 13217
04 May 2012 07:50 PM
Then they go into debt because socialism doesn't work, only full on communism would work,

but no it wouldn't.
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buck10me is not online. buck10me
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 5526
04 May 2012 07:50 PM
Where have I been.
Anyway.
Imma go to OT.
Gonna post somethin' there.
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MahPizzaIsHere is not online. MahPizzaIsHere
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Total Posts: 7707
04 May 2012 07:51 PM
Then they go into debt because socialism doesn't work, only full on communism would work,

________________________________

What?
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mage11561 is not online. mage11561
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 13217
04 May 2012 07:51 PM
"is socialism not taking money from everyone to support those who have less, whether you like it or not?

__________

No, lol."

Please inform me then.
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