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Re: The Scale of the Universe

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DapperNarwhal is not online. DapperNarwhal
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 24119
06 Jul 2017 05:50 PM
Tl;dr version at the bottom.


I posted this in another thread, but I figured it probably deserved its own thread. I haven't scienced on OT in a while, so it's about time.
I don't think very many people understand how truly massive the universe is. We all know it's BIG, but humans aren't really wired to understand numbers that large.

There's a really popular analogy to describe the scale of the universe, and that is the sand analogy.

There are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on Earth. There are between 100 billion and 400 billion stars in our galaxy alone. If those stars were grains of sand, their total mass would be equivalent to 500 metric tons of sand.

Let's assume the average star is the size of a grain of sand, which we'll assume is about .5 millimeters across, or about 1.6 millimeters in circumference. The solar system, if measured in these grains of sand (which are based on the average size of stars in the universe) would be about 3 1/2 meters from one end to the other. The Milky Way? It would be around 340,000 KILOMETERS across, or 1,068,142 kilometers in circumference. If grains of sand were laid end-to-end, that would be enough to circle the real-world Earth around the equator twenty-seven times over. That's compared to the diameter of our solar system, which is only 3.5 METERS in our sandy model.

What about the spaces between galaxies? The closest galaxy to the Milky Way, M31 "Andromeda" is 2.5 million light-years away. In terms of our sand-grain model, that would make it about 8,500,000 kilometers away, which could wrap around the circumference of the real-world Earth's equator around 675 times. Again, we're talking about GRAINS OF SAND laid end-to-end. I'll remind you, we're talking about the closest galaxy to the Milky Way. The distance between galactic clusters is larger than the distances between individual galaxies by several orders of magnitude.

The most important part is the size of the observable universe itself, which is around 93 billion light-years in diameter in the real world. How big would that be in our sand grain model? Just divide our next lowest order of magnitude, the distance between the Milky Way galaxy, by 93 billion. That's 93 billion divided by 2.5 million. That gives us 37,200. Now we multiply that number by the distance between the Milky Way and Andromeda in our sand model. That gives us 316,200,000,000 kilometers. Keep in mind, this is in our SAND GRAIN model, which puts things on a much smaller scale than the real world. If those grains of sand were laid end-to-end around the equator of the real-world Earth, how many times could they wrap around? About 25,110,000 times.
And how big would you be in this sand universe? You'd be roughly the size of a proton. Feel tiny yet?

My calculations are undoubtedly off by some orders of magnitude, but the general idea is still there. We're very small, and the universe is very huge.
Does anyone else have any analogies? Mine's a bit long and complex, and it isn't exactly the best one to use in a casual conversation.



Tl;dr: If the diameter universe was on the scale of grains of sand (each individual grain being the size of an average star), each grain of sand laid end-to-end would wrap around the universe 25,110,000 times, and you'd be about the size of a proton, if not smaller.


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2oil is not online. 2oil
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 75
06 Jul 2017 05:51 PM
nasa called they want there rocket scientist back
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DapperNarwhal is not online. DapperNarwhal
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 24119
06 Jul 2017 05:54 PM
"nasa called they want there rocket scientist back"

I wish. :~(


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Kaxis is not online. Kaxis
Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Total Posts: 7671
06 Jul 2017 05:55 PM
Good job explaining.


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yeox769 is not online. yeox769
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Total Posts: 8907
06 Jul 2017 05:55 PM
interesting.

also welcome back dapper
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DapperNarwhal is not online. DapperNarwhal
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 24119
06 Jul 2017 05:56 PM
"Good job explaining."

Thank you!
I borrowed the analogy of stars being grains of sand, but I did most of the math myself.
That means there are probably a lot of errors, but the numbers can't be TOO far off.


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DapperNarwhal is not online. DapperNarwhal
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 24119
06 Jul 2017 05:57 PM
"also welcome back dapper"

Glad I could finally make the time to make a science thread again. :,~)


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ScorpionPilots is not online. ScorpionPilots
Joined: 08 May 2015
Total Posts: 1845
06 Jul 2017 05:59 PM
Nah don't need to read this.

Go download SpaceEngine, it's awesome and it will show you the scale of the universe. It might actually be my favourite game so far. It blows my mind every time I play it.
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Aveeo is not online. Aveeo
Joined: 28 Apr 2012
Total Posts: 26934
06 Jul 2017 05:59 PM
You said you think your calculations are off, but from what I checked they're spot on.

Anyway, one of my favorites is the first search result you get when you google "scale of the universe." It not only shows how tiny you are in the observable universe, but also how big you are compared to subatomic particles. It's amazing.

Respect the science!
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DapperNarwhal is not online. DapperNarwhal
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 24119
06 Jul 2017 06:01 PM
It should also be noted that the size I used for the sand is relatively fine sand, so if you were using larger grains, like 2-millimeter ones, the number of times those grains of sand could wrap around the real-world Earth would be larger by 4 times.

"Go download SpaceEngine, it's awesome and it will show you the scale of the universe. It might actually be my favourite game so far. It blows my mind every time I play it."

Aveeo also showed me a site that has a really cool visualization. It gets down to the size of quantum foam itself. Pretty rad.


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CheyBlue is not online. CheyBlue
Joined: 06 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 15648
06 Jul 2017 06:01 PM
You haven't posted science stuff in a while, so I'll be sure to read 3 times to make up for lost content. :)
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Meruetes is not online. Meruetes
Joined: 24 Aug 2014
Total Posts: 5198
06 Jul 2017 06:02 PM
I have a strong dislike of science.


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Aveeo is not online. Aveeo
Joined: 28 Apr 2012
Total Posts: 26934
06 Jul 2017 06:04 PM
SpaceEngine looks so cool but I don't think it's macOS compatible

Respect the science!
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DrForce is online. DrForce
Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Total Posts: 35008
06 Jul 2017 06:04 PM
another cool example of showing size comparisons of the universe is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIiJZINJFiw


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DapperNarwhal is not online. DapperNarwhal
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 24119
06 Jul 2017 06:05 PM
"You said you think your calculations are off, but from what I checked they're spot on."

Oh, thanks!
I didn't really have anyone check my calculations before I posted this, so I wasn't sure. I did look them over more than a few times, but I still wasn't completely confident in them.

"Anyway, one of my favorites is the first search result you get when you google "scale of the universe." It not only shows how tiny you are in the observable universe, but also how big you are compared to subatomic particles. It's amazing."

There are some cool videos that compare the sizes of stars to each other. I want one that compares MASSES. It'd be relatively the same, but the sizes would slowly increase until they get to the neutron star, and you'd suddenly have an object much smaller than the previous object, but with many times the mass of that object. I don't think very many people understand just how dense neutron stars can be.


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Qwemz is not online. Qwemz
Joined: 27 Aug 2015
Total Posts: 7955
06 Jul 2017 06:08 PM
this is amazingly accurate imo
and it amazes me when i see the observable universe into scale, i feel tiny
also, did you know humans can only calculate the size of the observable universe because of light that has reached the earth
its amazing, weird, and yet complex to understand the universe itself

What is life
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TheClosedCloset is not online. TheClosedCloset
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Total Posts: 7178
06 Jul 2017 06:09 PM
around a year ago i used to be fascinated by the universe, particularly hypergiant stars. i thought stars like xy canis majoris and betelgeuse were fascinating. stars thousands of times bigger then our sun sol.
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ScorpionPilots is not online. ScorpionPilots
Joined: 08 May 2015
Total Posts: 1845
06 Jul 2017 06:09 PM
@Aveeo it is really cool, it took me about 3 hours to download it though because it's about 2 and a half gigabytes. But it's totally worth it because you can explore the solar system and once your done you can explore other solar systems and once your done with that you can explore other galaxies...

How is it even possible because it contains millions if not hundreds of millions of objects from not just our galaxy but other galaxies as well. It's so vast.
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DrForce is online. DrForce
Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Total Posts: 35008
06 Jul 2017 06:09 PM
but also, good job op, this is really well done, and would be a lot better then how i'd demonstrate it

i know this because during a presentation about cats i tried using a laser pointer to show what the pictures meant and i couldn't hold it straight at all


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DapperNarwhal is not online. DapperNarwhal
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 24119
06 Jul 2017 06:12 PM
"You haven't posted science stuff in a while, so I'll be sure to read 3 times to make up for lost content. :)"

Awwww, thanks!

"I have a strong dislike of science."

A lot of people do, but the cool thing about science is that it's true whether you like it and/or believe in it or not.

"another cool example of showing size comparisons of the universe is"

I love videos like that.
The purpose of the sandy model is mostly just to shrink all of that down into distances we can readily understand. People know what light-years are, but many people don't really get how far a light-year actually is. However, most people understand how big around the Earth is, so using the "could wrap around the Earth [x] times" is a good way to help people understand the size a little better.


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DrForce is online. DrForce
Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Total Posts: 35008
06 Jul 2017 06:15 PM
"I love videos like that.
The purpose of the sandy model is mostly just to shrink all of that down into distances we can readily understand. People know what light-years are, but many people don't really get how far a light-year actually is. However, most people understand how big around the Earth is, so using the "could wrap around the Earth [x] times" is a good way to help people understand the size a little better."
huh, neat
i should try to look up more on it whenever i get the chance, sounds interesting


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DapperNarwhal is not online. DapperNarwhal
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 24119
06 Jul 2017 06:18 PM
"this is amazingly accurate imo"

Thanks! It's a relief that it actually turned out well.

"and it amazes me when i see the observable universe into scale, i feel tiny"

I feel tiny, but I also feel really special. Don't think of it like "I'm here, and the universe is there". Think of it like "I'm a PART of the universe", and you'll feel really proud to be a part of something that massive.

"also, did you know humans can only calculate the size of the observable universe because of light that has reached the earth"

Yep!

"around a year ago i used to be fascinated by the universe, particularly hypergiant stars. i thought stars like xy canis majoris and betelgeuse were fascinating. stars thousands of times bigger then our sun sol."

And then you think about how small those stars are compared to everything else.

"How is it even possible because it contains millions if not hundreds of millions of objects from not just our galaxy but other galaxies as well. It's so vast."

Probably TRILLIONS, actually.
The Milky Way, which is an average-sized galaxy, has between 100 billion and 400 billion stars completely on its own.

"but also, good job op, this is really well done, and would be a lot better then how i'd demonstrate it"

Thank you! I've been trying to improve my explaining skills more lately.


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DapperNarwhal is not online. DapperNarwhal
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Total Posts: 24119
06 Jul 2017 06:19 PM
"i should try to look up more on it whenever i get the chance, sounds interesting"

I'm glad you're interested in it!
There can't be too many science enthusiasts.


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Aveeo is not online. Aveeo
Joined: 28 Apr 2012
Total Posts: 26934
06 Jul 2017 06:19 PM
"Thank you! I've been trying to improve my explaining skills more lately."

Got any tips for me?

Respect the science!
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DrForce is online. DrForce
Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Total Posts: 35008
06 Jul 2017 06:22 PM
"Thank you! I've been trying to improve my explaining skills more lately."
no problem, so far the skills are really good \o/

"I'm glad you're interested in it!
There can't be too many science enthusiasts."
yeah, it sucks though how most of the time on terms of science, people just breeze over it as if it's not really that important


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