Harbynger
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| Joined: 06 Jul 2008 |
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:14 PM |
if you create a perfect clone of yourself it's soul, memories, personality, physicalness, etc. is all perfectly identical, it doesn't even know it's a clone
and you continue on with either very little divergence or disappear for one reason or another, in such a way that it doesn't answer anything differently than you would, and reacts to everything the exact same way you would.
is that clone *technically* you then?
The other thing is, I'm pulling this out of foreshadowing and random thoughts I have here, the point of above is to investigate if a clone that is the exact same as a target hero, (for the sake of argument, let's say Fox McCloud or some other generic video game hero), except 3 years behind. During that 3 years, our hero, Fox McCloud, goes into Arthas mode and does a Face-Heel turn and goes absolutely insane or whatever. Maybe even dyes his fur black and joins an elite marine group and goes kills friend and foe alike or something. For the sake of realism, let's say he did it because his girlfriend left him for Star Wolf or something. Again. Like the ending of Command. Maybe even find some new friends in another vixen who's the only thing holding him back from complete insanity, a raccoon who loves pyrotechnics, and someone else. And nuked Corneria too.
As a result, let's say for the sake of argument, Slippy creates a perfect clone of Fox from 3 years earlier. This "second Fox" has no memories of becoming this supervillain, did not go down the same train of thought, etc. etc., but in all ways is essentially "Fox McCloud", the familiar hero of the Lylat system and everything.
The original ("real") Fox then, taking on a new persona, begs (clone) Fox to go and end him or something, and carry on (clone Fox) being the hero because he (original Fox) is a disgrace or whatever and deserves to rot in whatever hole Andross does. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXTAkpnXpwA), let the McCloud save the universe and kill the Big Bad or something, as James did before him.
What does the cloned Fox think? What goes through his head, etc. etc.? Is he then, the "real" Fox McCloud, because the original effectively killed that persona a long time ago, thus being able to legitimately carry on the name because he is a restoration of that man? What does he think? Or it better to not even tell him he's a clone in the first place, and excuse it away as a coma for 3 years?
Hey, that's just how I write things and would end that story (if you know what I am referring to... to be honest I'm a bit embarrassed to outright admit to what I am referring lol), I wouldn't end it without some sort of light in the darkness + gray vs. grey morality. Everything has to be dark, cynical, and depressing... but in a way that provides sympathy for the 'dark side'. Not just 100% edge like that story is, in which it turns a character who you're supposed to admire into an absolute monster... honestly not even an interesting monster like Arthas. If you want to do that story, make him #### ### some of his old squadmates or something and then go into a "My God, what have I done" ala Saren Arterius (Kills Nihlus, then at the end of ME1 you can do a paragon conversation option where Saren well, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6yA1Ep813Q)
That story just makes the protagonist just... snap all of a sudden. No real deeper reason other than his girlfriend left him twice. Thus he kills everyone in the galaxy because boo hoo? Meh.
harbynger@roblox:~$ sudo rm -rf / --no-preserve-root && echo "Get slam jammed, kid!" |
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:30 PM |
I don't know and don't care to such an extent as to search Fox McCloud or whatever
But as for your initial and less specific question: The clone is technically you. If there are no differences whatsoever, not a single one, then you are both one in the same.
But I think the problem comes in what we really mean when we use the word "clone" in a context like this.
People's identity has been a very lengthy and tackled idea. People like to think of physical characteristics when considering their identity, or the existence of a soul in the absence of physical being.
For example, suppose you're unconscious. Is the vessel for your consciousness really you? What if you lose a limb? Are you no longer the person you were before having lost the limb? What if you suffered total Alzheimers and additional brain injuries that left you with total long-term memory loss? Are you no longer the same person?
I believe that your person is defined by the character you take on in the moment. Your decisions, beliefs, actions. How you interact with the environment. These interactions are not, if isolated, unique to you for the most part. Rather, the combination of them and your physical appearance constitute a changing and growing identity. |
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jcc98
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| Joined: 22 Oct 2016 |
| Total Posts: 4637 |
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:33 PM |
yes and i didnt read your other wall of text but i am gonna spitball and sayyyyyy no |
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:35 PM |
To the first question:
No, that is not me. It is defined as a clone as being a represented copy of the original form, I am myself and my clone is itself. Essentially I would become the Original Generation while the clone became the next generation and so-on. |
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:42 PM |
Imperial:
Are you using the time of its existence as a distinction?
Otherwise, your argument is just that it being the cloned one makes it less original than you. Problem being that since it is an exact absolute perfect and indistinguishable copy of your person that it IS you.
That clone has no distinction, besides time, from you. Physically, mentally, its memories, its behavior. All you. And even if your argument were assumed true, it creates an interesting problem.
How do you prove that the clone is a descending generation? |
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Harbynger
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| Joined: 06 Jul 2008 |
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:47 PM |
The second word wall can be summed up by saying,
"If the clone is told explicitly by the original that it's a clone, and that it's the clone's duty to take on that identity... then the original goes and self-terminates for the crimes they've committed under a different persona... what does the clone do/think/philosophically claim right to?"
i.e., Arthas if he ever realized what he's done and tries to rip the Lich King out of himself, but it's buried so deep that he has to sacrifice himself. So you resurrect old Arthas in a clone... is that Arthas? What does this new Arthas do/think/etc.?
Does he consider 'the other Arthas' himself like in a mirror? Does he consider that Arthas a different person, or a dark future echo? What do they think about their personal identity? etc.
harbynger@roblox:~$ sudo rm -rf / --no-preserve-root && echo "Get slam jammed, kid!" |
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:49 PM |
youre talking about that Rogue Fox thing arent you
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:50 PM |
the easy answer is no.
once the clone comes into existence all things it does will be different than the original as it is impossible to experience life exactly the same. without getting all meta since its late, there is a special connection with mind, body, and time that would uniquely distinguish the two individuals. its late so im leaving it at that before i get the temptation to go on a philosophical tirade. |
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:52 PM |
Time is the definitive of everything, without time you have nothing.
Which is why you base the clones off their designated time creation date compared to the original. Thus you clearly can define which was first, who was second, who was third, and so forth. The question of whether it is me or someone else is simple, clones while might be exact replicas of myself aren't me. My clones after their creation date begin to adapt to their environment like myself and as such clearly shown begin to differ from me instantly. Just because I have a clone with the exact genetic, physical, memories, etc of myself doesn't mean we will think the same thoughts at the same time.
Look at a pair of identical twins, assume both have the same genetics, physical, and mental form. They've shared their memories over the years and are combined to the hip, does this mean both are each other or does this signify that both have their own distinct thoughts and understandings?
This is when the idealism of the Twin Telepathy theory, which can be understood as similar body structures would produce a similar magnetic field thus enabling contact between two visible spaces if connected and strengthened. However, this would still differentiate both twins as each would communicate their single thoughts.
The brain is what gives you your differences, it's constantly computing and constantly innovating, it is clearly improbable for someone to clone themselves 100% and then expect that clone to be them and have the same thought at the same moment showing that time is the ultimate definitive and clearly understands that the original will always be different from the clone. |
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Insurrect
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| Joined: 04 Oct 2013 |
| Total Posts: 22734 |
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:53 PM |
i love when op does threads like this
much respect. |
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Harbynger
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| Joined: 06 Jul 2008 |
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| 10 Jan 2017 11:54 PM |
But what if the original, at the start of his clone's creation just dies right then and there? Nothing to compare it against (original and clone never coexist), merely a rolled back version of that person who is guided off the same path.
If this were to be wrong, then "AI preservation" must then be also more of a cheap imitation than 'eternal life'.
harbynger@roblox:~$ sudo rm -rf / --no-preserve-root && echo "Get slam jammed, kid!" |
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| 11 Jan 2017 12:01 AM |
Time again defines clearly that this paradox would be impossible.
If the original at the start of the clones creating dies, means that he just dies.
This is why when you attempt to upload your brain into a computer, you the biological being die while a copy clone survives digitally.
The only way for you to transfer your life is by transferring your consciousness into someone else. Which isn't even yet defined. |
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| 11 Jan 2017 12:11 AM |
Well, time definitely is a great argument against the clone being one in the same with you.
However, assume you were perfectly identical lab raised twins and again had the same EXACT life experiences. We're not saying these things with current technology in mind. We're assuming for the sake of argument absolute perfection and MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE advanced technology probably well beyond the capabilities of humanity.
What would the difference be? What if not time would be different between you and this other being? Location?
If location makes something different from you, then I question what you would call a limb that you lost.
Or suppose you died in combat or a wreck, and you were in multiple pieces. Are those multiple pieces new identities of their own? Are they no longer you? |
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Harbynger
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| Joined: 06 Jul 2008 |
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| 11 Jan 2017 12:28 AM |
Bump
harbynger@roblox:~$ sudo rm -rf / --no-preserve-root && echo "Get slam jammed, kid!" |
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Wolfane
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| Joined: 08 Mar 2011 |
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| 11 Jan 2017 01:18 AM |
No.
Because it would not be from your point of view. Your consciousness.
To others, it wouldn't matter. It would act and be exactly the same.
To yourself, it wouldn't be you at all. |
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Harbynger
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| Joined: 06 Jul 2008 |
| Total Posts: 34677 |
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| 11 Jan 2017 01:56 AM |
Bump
harbynger@roblox:~$ sudo rm -rf / --no-preserve-root && echo "Get slam jammed, kid!" |
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| 11 Jan 2017 12:04 PM |
if you create a perfect clone of yourself it's soul, memories, personality, physicalness, etc. is all perfectly identical, it doesn't even know it's a clone
and you continue on with either very little divergence or disappear for one reason or another, in such a way that it doesn't answer anything differently than you would, and reacts to everything the exact same way you would.
is that clone *technically* you then?
The other thing is, I'm pulling this out of foreshadowing and random thoughts I have here, the point of above is to investigate if a clone that is the exact same as a target hero, (for the sake of argument, let's say Fox McCloud or some other generic video game hero), except 3 years behind. During that 3 years, our hero, Fox McCloud, goes into Arthas mode and does a Face-Heel turn and goes absolutely insane or whatever. Maybe even dyes his fur black and joins an elite marine group and goes kills friend and foe alike or something. For the sake of realism, let's say he did it because his girlfriend left him for Star Wolf or something. Again. Like the ending of Command. Maybe even find some new friends in another vixen who's the only thing holding him back from complete insanity, a raccoon who loves pyrotechnics, and someone else. And nuked Corneria too.
As a result, let's say for the sake of argument, Slippy creates a perfect clone of Fox from 3 years earlier. This "second Fox" has no memories of becoming this supervillain, did not go down the same train of thought, etc. etc., but in all ways is essentially "Fox McCloud", the familiar hero of the Lylat system and everything.
The original ("real") Fox then, taking on a new persona, begs (clone) Fox to go and end him or something, and carry on (clone Fox) being the hero because he (original Fox) is a disgrace or whatever and deserves to rot in whatever hole Andross does. ( youtu.be/vXTAkpnXpwA), let the McCloud save the universe and kill the Big Bad or something, as James did before him.
What does the cloned Fox think? What goes through his head, etc. etc.? Is he then, the "real" Fox McCloud, because the original effectively killed that persona a long time ago, thus being able to legitimately carry on the name because he is a restoration of that man? What does he think? Or it better to not even tell him he's a clone in the first place, and excuse it away as a coma for 3 years?
Hey, that's just how I write things and would end that story (if you know what I am referring to... to be honest I'm a bit embarrassed to outright admit to what I am referring lol), I wouldn't end it without some sort of light in the darkness + gray vs. grey morality. Everything has to be dark, cynical, and depressing... but in a way that provides sympathy for the 'dark side'. Not just 100% edge like that story is, in which it turns a character who you're supposed to admire into an absolute monster... honestly not even an interesting monster like Arthas. If you want to do that story, make him #### ### some of his old squadmates or something and then go into a "My God, what have I done" ala Saren Arterius (Kills Nihlus, then at the end of ME1 you can do a paragon conversation option where Saren well, youtu.be/D6yA1Ep813Q)
That story just makes the protagonist just... snap all of a sudden. No real deeper reason other than his girlfriend left him twice. Thus he kills everyone in the galaxy because boo hoo? Meh.
Join Paragons! |
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Harbynger
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| Joined: 06 Jul 2008 |
| Total Posts: 34677 |
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| 11 Jan 2017 02:04 PM |
oh
harbynger@roblox:~$ sudo rm -rf / --no-preserve-root && echo "Get slam jammed, kid!" |
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