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| 26 Sep 2016 10:56 PM |
Experimental Ideas for Interactive map. (This may be elaborated or expanded!) ------------------------------- [Terms] -1 Month in game map = 1 Week Irl, at the end of the week (Sunday) the month is changed.
-Invoke ikki- This means to stage some kind of rebellion at a single location.
-Destroyed Clan- Only an open field place will be used for 3 months by the conquerors.(not the destroyed clan). Members of the destroyed clan may not defend their places, and their lands automatically become part of the han of any clan that fights and wins at that location until the 3 week period is up. This means the people who destroyed the clan will need to take the responsibility of defending the land if they want to keep it.
-Koku (Land value) A unit of volume that seconds somewhat as a points system for this map.
-Han- (Domain) The combined land and koku of one lord and/or his allies,vassals or subordinates under a single group. (A Han should have a group that is allied to the feudal japan group, and allied to all members of that han.). A lord may name his han whatever he want's to name it, as long as 'Domain' or 'Han' finishes the title. A han typically is spearheaded by a recognized, ruling or leading clan.
-Daimyo- Clan leader who has achieved 10000 koku and 3 standing armies A lord can have one standing army piece per 20 men until they have three. ------------------------------- Map is updated every week.
On Sundays schemes and plots will be pm'd to the dev for updating the map and preparing/arranging events. The map is updated by the end of Tuesday. Event's and assessments are scheduled for Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. The map is updated on these days, and will be updated as late as Sunday or Monday depending on the events and availability of a moderator. A break period is given until Monday and the map is updated again on Tuesday after the leaders have finished assessing and re-evaluating strategies. If two lords launch a plan to attack each other at the same time, they will battle on an open, neutral field. The winner will be permitted to launch his plans.
If a lord's army fails three battles during a campaign against one clan, he must quit his campaign and return home. The defeated lord may not use that army again for 2 in game months.
If a clan fails to defend its province location's, it then becomes a vassal member of the conquering lord's domain, UNLESS that lord decided not to subjugate or assimilate the defeated defenders into the domain, in which case you owe him or her a favor. the clan's koku becomes added to the ruling domain koku. A conquered clan may not rebel against their conquerors for another 2 months.
A clan may choose to not fight for independence, and instead, support another lord or han. A han also does not have to be hostile, it can be created for purposes other than expansion or war.
When a conquered clan's 2-month time frame is up, if they do not want to remain a part of the lord's han they can invoke ikki at a location they own of their choosing, however, the han they are rebelling against can first eliminate one location from their options. A single battle event will take place at that location and if the rebels lose they will become a destroyed clan.
If a conquered clan is attacked by another clan during the 2 month period and loses again, they will be a destroyed clan. When a destroyed clan's 3 month period is up, it can experience a revival by invoking ikki against whoever the current han rulers are and battling them at the open field location. If the clan fails in this rebellion that clan will remain dead for the next 2 months. A clan can also be permitted to be a member of the han as an alternative method of revival, in which case the clan may operate in all of its lands again, but cannot rebel for another 2 months.
Clan's may only attack or defend locations in a province their standing armies are in! Standing armies may only move one province adjacent to theirs per month, and cannot move through another clan's han unless they permit it, or are defeated. A defeated defender can choose to parlay to allow the lord through after defeat, to spare men. Or perhaps the victor wishes to make the defeated lord part of his domain, then the defeated lord would then continue to fight, or agree to the condition's in which case you refer to the section addressing this, above. ------------------------------- Land is divided by Koku Values every province/territory section has 4 locations Each clan can have one of their locations unavailable for attack (optional). Open Land (No farms) or Mountain places are 2000 koku by default. A place made with thick forests are 2500 koku. A place on the coast (fishing/trading port) is 3000 koku. (cannot be a landlocked province, and must have a visible coastal trading/fishing town or center.) (coastal places reduce fortress/castle costs by 10%) When a raid start's each side has 5000 points to spend on supplies. Farmland /Farm villages are 3000 koku. (A place made with 5 100x100 stud farms) Castle locations can be built onto or added to farm,open field,mountain or forest location's ------------------------------- Small fortresses Castles cost 10% of the land's value. [small wooden fortifications or a small basic tenshu with minimal outer walls] Decent sized fortresses/Castles cost 25% of the land's value. [Standard tenshu and walls around the location] Large or complicated Castles cost 50% of the land's value. [Elaborate or otherwise large, complicated defense systems and walls] Ridiculously huge castles cost 75% of the land's value [Elaborate or otherwise large, complicated defense systems and walls x2]
When a siege start's a castle location has 5000 points to spend on supplies an invading team has 4500 points to spend on supplies.
When a siege at a mountainous or open land location start's, a castle location has 5500 points to spend on supplies an invading team has 4500 points to spend on supplies. siege modes may have a capture or destroy point?--Review ------------------------------- Essential read: Tool/Tech and fair battle mechanics Ideas and point costs. https://forum.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=199216342 ------------------------------- After reading everything in this forum and the forum link above, then use this link below to continue. https://forum.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=199215697
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Junster1
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| Joined: 01 Jun 2013 |
| Total Posts: 5 |
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NinjaRuaz
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| Joined: 25 Sep 2012 |
| Total Posts: 91 |
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| 28 Sep 2016 01:45 PM |
You might want to simplify and proofread it.
That being said, it's a wonderful idea that may take a lot of effort to understand. I support it. -Fuuma Ryoma
"When Roblox censors my clan's name, but doesn't censor Satan." |
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| 29 Sep 2016 12:55 AM |
| Junster would Okudaira be a part of the same domain as hojo? |
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Ujinobu
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| Joined: 09 Sep 2011 |
| Total Posts: 263 |
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| 29 Sep 2016 02:43 AM |
| Okudaira is a Mikawa based clan; It is a protectorate and not a vassal. Basically it is not even part of Hojo at all, and only held by me because Junster has no BC. |
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| 29 Sep 2016 03:48 AM |
| That is why I was asking, Your clans have history, so his clan being part of the same domain wouldn't be far fetched, arigato for clarifying. |
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| 29 Sep 2016 07:55 AM |
Thi is more information, regarding concerns HyudaMasanari Had:
------------------------------ On 9/29/2016 at 1:59 AM, HyudaMasanari wrote: As much as I appreciate the effort you've put into refining the system, I think we need to talk about your ideas; there are a few things that I don't agree with. Most of my issues can be boiled down into two overarching problems:
First, these refinements are simply too much - the goal with our combat system was to assert as little change as possible while still giving a viable framework for clans to use, and the system itself is very complex, which I feel will put off a lot of people. It also slows the pace of the genre down massively and the use of standing armies is much too involved. The amount of infrastructure necessary for these sorts of changes is just too much. I also feel that, while some refinement is needed for the Kuge idea, forcing the emperor to change his choices constantly cheapens the significance. Moreover, having all clans make a han group is too much, too; there must be a more efficient method.
Second, having time periods - 1 week = 1 month, for example, I think is a bad idea; it means that there is an expiration date on the genre, and even if that date takes a very long time to reach, I would prefer that it not be there at all.
That being said, this raid system is rather interesting, adding a strategic edge to raids. I do like the way this looks.
###############################################################################################################################################################################################################But do understand, this wasn't haphazardly thrown together, and it's not a new idea. This is the near end result of a long time of planning and work.
1467 to 1567 the map will begin at 1467, possibly useing a tick script that automatically updates the year as the days months and weeks go by.
It takes one irl week for 1 in game month
It is about 12 weeks irl (12 months in game) to pass a year, which is about 2 1/2 months irl.
so it takes around 4.8 years in game for one year irl to pass. therefore, it will take about 21 years irl for the genre to reach 1567, but even then it could continue, if we're all still around by then. Assuming for some reason everyone is still around, the map and all events that took place would have been recorded. and the map time could then be reset. At any rate, whenever the genre ends. The logs will be kept like a story to tell. Maybe for some that will be precious to their memories of a game they once played, but is it really that serious? Rather, will it really be that serious 20 years from now?
Anyway, as for the Emporer's time frame to switch who he decides as kuge, this element was added due to the fact that the Emporer, being another player, did not live a courtly life, and does not have the temperament of a man who was raised to rule like a god on earth from birth to death. so reasonably, he will have bias from time to time, having him pick different families helps keep the variety and potential for families who want to push to greater things alive. But that timeframe, the timeframe is just a number, it can be more or less, or if the Emporer ends up not having bias at all and switches the kuge accordingly, it may no be needed at all. The time frame just keeps initiative alive.
And the amount of infrastructure needed is already there. It's not some distant far off concept, it's already made. All it needs is to be used. |
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Corlanius
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| Joined: 08 Jun 2015 |
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| 29 Sep 2016 08:00 AM |
| For some reason Roblox decided to hashtag the first part, everything after the hashtags is me responding. |
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NinjaRuaz
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| Joined: 25 Sep 2012 |
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| 29 Sep 2016 09:40 AM |
| I propose that for the Secondary Han groups should be changed into one Han group, with each rank representing each group who decides. This cuts down cost extremely, and can organize many of the concepts. However, it may be quite "crowded" in that group, which wouldn't be a problem since it would help raise awareness for the genre. |
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NinjaRuaz
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| Joined: 25 Sep 2012 |
| Total Posts: 91 |
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| 29 Sep 2016 09:41 AM |
| I propose that for the Secondary Han groups should be changed into one Han group, with each rank representing each group who decides to take part in the Han system. This cuts down cost extremely, and can organize many of the concepts. However, it may be quite "crowded" in that group, which wouldn't be a problem since it would help raise awareness for the genre.* |
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Ujinobu
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| Joined: 09 Sep 2011 |
| Total Posts: 263 |
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| 30 Sep 2016 01:10 PM |
| For now I believe it will be better to await the results of the Shogunate System meeting, rather than already making side-features and indepth actions. |
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Ujinobu
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| Joined: 09 Sep 2011 |
| Total Posts: 263 |
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| 30 Sep 2016 01:17 PM |
| And about the years? ## years is not much #### If we are real clans we will simply pass it down by generation. The genre itself is ############ meaning that it will be better to rather use a fixed time period like #### ##### ##### This is because the genre itself should not "reset" at all, but hence allow clans to rise and fall as their leader(s) grow and die off, with their respective consequences. A thing that might be considered however, is adding seasons into the concept, which could affect one thing or another. I do however agree with ######### that alot is too indepth and going beyond the point of simple attacking land. Regarding Hans; I believe it will be redundant to have a group with han ownership; That is what we have the map for: To showcase which clan owns which province(s). But alas, as said, let's await the shogunate meeting and it's result. |
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Ujinobu
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| Joined: 09 Sep 2011 |
| Total Posts: 263 |
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| 30 Sep 2016 01:18 PM |
| 1467 to 1868 as time period (not going through every year by a tick; just set it in stone like time period: X - X) |
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| 30 Sep 2016 08:30 PM |
| At any rate, none of this should concern anyone actually using the map, it wouldn't affect them at all. It's for the developers to keep track of all the history and when it happened. |
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| 30 Sep 2016 08:49 PM |
More Q & A Courtesy of HyudaMasanari.
On 9/29/2016 at 2:10 PM, HyudaMasanari wrote: I still don't understand why all of the army movement mechanics are even necessary. They seem completely unneeded and only serve as an obstacle for anyone wanting to go to battle, and I still don't see the point of having a han system either.
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| 30 Sep 2016 08:55 PM |
Sep 29, 2016 9:44 PM AoiSourudipu wrote: The more complex technical reasons aside, Having standing armies creates the strategic element that encourages people to play their own way, taking risks and having consequences. It also encourages more interaction while at the same time giving a more immersive feel to combat and warfare.
It also gives people a reason for war, instead of just having random declarations, and it allows people to plan and speculate on what their enemies moves will be next.
When clan A needs to attack clan C, it needs to go around or go through clan B.
This creates an interesting situation where clan B can care less, and do clan A a solid, allowing him to pass through the lands. (trusting clan A is not trying to attack clan B's places) clan B can be encouraged to speak with clan A about his intention's in any other situation these clans wouldn't need to interact at all, but in this system it has them talk to one another even if it's out of their own interests. Which helps clans constantly plot, plan, make allies make enemies. Instead of making up dumber reasons to declare war at random, or not interacting at all. This element will really bring the community together. Anyway, continuing... Clan B can assume clan A is hostile, and send his men out to confront him. Clan B can try to expand his territory or call on other clan's to make a wall that clan A will be forced to defeat or parley with. Which presents more advanced strategies, and situations where if a tactician is smart enough, he can give his enemy no easy way out. Meaning, even more interaction with talks for diplomatic resolutions. Clan B can also do clan C a solid, and claim he was shielding clan C. Forming a new alliance. Where as a system where you just attack the other clan no matter how far, any clan's in between and allies have no part in it, and can't launch any strategic plan to defend their ally. Having limited troops also adds another twist to the battles, you can choose to leave a province undefended, or make allies you trust to defend your provinces for you, or even defend your province and trust in your allies to expand your han, if you join the same domain. Or even create a buffer where people can't attack your home province as you're surrounded by allies or claimed provinces.
It also prevent's random server flooding and allows people to see who will be joining a battle based on which armies are coming. and encourages them to quickly rally allies in their defence accordingly. IT ALSO proved the ability to distract or cause setbacks, or ruin or foil an enemies plan, for example, if they send an army out to attack you. You can ask an ally or send an army of your own out to harass their provinces. forcing them to go deal with that first, or forcing them to communicate with their allies more about dealing with it.
I also plan to add bandit forces, people always liken the map to Warband and it's not based off that, but heck why not .. I can make a bandit group and invite sword fighting groups to stop by our genre as bandits when they want to get a challenge. Providing another twist to strategies and plans.
This also promotes the use of shinobi for espionage, actual espionage. I will make a feature where each clan can use or hire one shinobi force. and that force will be invisible on the map, but will follow the same movement rules as everyone else. The only way to see these forces is to physically search the map, and when you get close enough they will become visible. Which may add a surprise element to leader's who aren't paying attention.
You can see what the han system is for in the forum. But it also serves to show the domain of allies and vassals who are united, as well as showing who conquered lands now belong to. when you can only have three armies, you will need allies and or vassals to provide more forces to keep your borders and military interest's secure. SO multiple clans will then become parts of the same domain. You can see an example I used with Serenity samurai and Toyotomi clan when visiting the map. This also allows minor forces to be shown as part of your domain if they operate out of a province you own.
For example, Fuma-shi operates from a mountain that's located in Sagami, their ninja clan automatically then is part of Hojo's domain even if they don't interact, since they are not a full-fledged faction.
Examples of groups that are not full-fledged faction's but can be shown on the map are: Temples or shrines of monk groups or Militant Monk groups. Shinobu clans. School or places for universal teaching. Guild or Merchant outposts or camps. Bandit camp's (which can be completely destroyed) etc.
A daimyo of the Sengoku didn't just magically have enough men to rule the country. They had retainers and other lord's backing them up under the same banner. This reflect's that and encourages that level of strategic interaction, loyalty, and possibly betrayal |
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| 30 Sep 2016 09:06 PM |
More Answers to Questions and concerns: Having to make Han Groups. -------------------------------------------------------------- The han group is actually non-essential, and can emerge over time. Otherwise, I will pay for the creation of the group if its needed. Its only needed for the convenience of knowing who is in your han and easily checking and communicating without having to go to the map. If you look at the map now, you will see some clans already have their han shown with a default name. |
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| 30 Sep 2016 09:33 PM |
Sometime's two hand can combine to make a new han, actually, in this case, it's more convenient to not have a han group when I could just update it on the map for you. Making the groups is mainly for giving the description and han name's a symbol and group ID to pull information from a group desc that can be updated by the leader. Which is why I encourage Han to not be named after the actual clan's and instead have a different name. Here are some examples of han that were based around or in Mutsu province historically: Hirosaki Kuroishi Hachinohe Kunohe Morioka Kōri Aizu Ichinoseki Iwakitaira Miharu Moriyama Sendai You'll notice you don't see many clan names right? |
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Worino
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| Joined: 10 Sep 2009 |
| Total Posts: 29 |
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| 02 Oct 2016 06:25 PM |
| i would rather have it that 4 days is a month rather than one week in order to speed up the genre. |
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Ujinobu
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| Joined: 09 Sep 2011 |
| Total Posts: 263 |
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| 03 Oct 2016 02:02 AM |
The Imperial Administration has been asked to take this entire forum for possible incorportation into what mainly would be the map maitenance part of the shogunate system proposed and accepted by the Imperial Court some months ago.
We are glad to inform everybody that most parts will be incorporated; More information will follow once the final bricks have been placed where they need to be.
Signed:
Hojo Ujinobu; Sadaijin of The Imperial Court. |
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| 12 Oct 2016 11:18 PM |
| The official clan-changing event's like provincial take overs etc take a week(month) so we can be sure to have both clans available to participate and be updated and aware of whats going on. This is also to schedule battles on the Thursday Friday and Saturday, which typically don't conflict with school or work. Other events like practice raids and every other kind of event we normally do can still happen any day of the week. |
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