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| 22 Jul 2016 09:29 AM |
*Before we begin, I'm not saying VAK is at fault for everything that has happened, that would be absurd to say. However, I do believe that VAK is the clan that has made the largest advancements in the clan attitude of "doing anything to win," thus opening themselves up for criticism and blame.* --------------------- For me, a lot of the issues that I have with VAK, and other clans, lie upon something I call "clan theory." While a person can look at individualistic characteristics of clans and determine their opinions based upon those certain factors, I prefer to look at a clan's function within the clan world. That includes how they interact, influence, and affect the clan world as a whole. This is generally separated into two categories: positively and negatively. (Side Note: I will try to explain this, but this is a very in-depth topic that requires a lot of explanation so I might not be able to explain everything. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions on my opinions.) However, with the alterations of clans from the past to the present, it tends to become more difficult to place clans into these two categories due to the single most influential and destructive idea to ever exist within clans, which is something I call the "clan attitude." This destructive ideal can be summed up as "doing anything to win." I believe that the majority of the prevalent issues within clans stems from this clan attitude that has deteriorated clans as a whole. Some of the broader issues that came about from the advancement of this clan attitude include the devaluing of the average member, forcing unfair advantages at bases, underhanded/dirty tactics, and the loss of honor. Clans, rather than uphold integrity and morality, attempt to salvage themselves or remain at some sort of "reputation" based upon the rankings and input of C&G, which is totally absurd. A lot of people on C&G hardly even participate in clans or actually progress this devastating clan attitude, and to be quite honest, I don't know why clans continue to regard the opinion of C&G so highly. First, I'll discuss some specifics on how this clan attitude has gripped and affected clans. One of the largest issues, in my eyes, is the fact that this clan attitude devalued the average member and caused clans to no longer have a need for them. Clans wanted skilled members that could counter the rise of unfairness in bases/more difficult bases, so not only did they no longer have a use for the average member, but they changed their recruitment tactics as well. VIP recruiting, which is one of the most important and efficient methods for recruitment, was looked upon as "bad" and clans stopped using it. This was the one of the greatest assets to the clan community because it was the most effective method to date that could bring in a large amount of people quickly and spark interest in newer members (Which would branch off to more powerful clans as they experienced clans more, such as VAK). Thus, I think this (Devaluing of average member) is a result of more challenging bases and the advancement of the clan attitude of doing anything to win. Bases of the past allowed for the average clan member to participate, yet with the introduction of more challenging bases (Especially with a less advantageous raider to defender ratio), these average members were left behind by clans themselves because HRs/clans wished to substitute in higher skilled players to win. Rather than perhaps progressing the skill level of the clan as a whole, they created "raiding squads" with certain members and dismissed others that they deemed unworthy or not as skilled. As the value of the average clan member decreased, the desire for them (VIP recruiting) and the desire of the clan members themselves decreased or became really nonexistent, thus causing a rise in the number of skilled players we see. I think its important to remember that while individual parts of bases within the past may seem more unfair compared to those of today, bases of the past were actually a lot more fair in terms of actual gameplay. Firstly, due to a variety of members and the acceptance of the clan world, raids were generally easier. Yes, I do agree that people have realized the importance of tactics and such, but I think its also important to take into account some of the aspects of bases of the past. A lot of the advantages of the past were actually countered by more fair aspects, specifically the raider to defender ratio. Most bases offered 5v25 which offset those unfair aspects and actually made it really fun to defend (Against the odds) and be a Raider at the same time (Because clans did still have some advantages that you had to deal with). However, as clans have progressed, >many< of these advantages (Spawn distances, guns, divisional advantages, etc.) have remained in bases while the raider to defender ratio has become more equal. I find this extremely unfair, a trend that has caused bases to become a lot more difficult, Which also plays a part in devaluing the average member. Clans need skilled people and the average member of the past simply can't put up a fight against these bases. But why did bases become much more difficult? It's because this clan attitude of "doing anything to win" has caused clans to increase their base difficulty so that they can hold onto some type of "reputation" and be "strong." This is just one of the issues I have with VAK's base(s). While some VAKs have openly stated on the forums that 15v15 just requires skill/tactics, any base with an increased defender count will inherently always be in favor of the defending team, especially when those bases still offer defender advantages. Now, people could argue about base fairness with SMO/Kaznan, but I think the more important issue is asking the questions that go along with these base aspects. How will this play a part in the value of clan members? How will this play a part in clan participation? However, I think its also important to note that VAK is not the only clan that does this nor is it the only clan that has raised its base difficulty; there are plenty of other clans that are guilty of this. Furthermore, this is where I do agree with you in terms of clans sharing members and having the "same old" members hop from clan to clan and from war to war. Due to the lack of new members, along with the stagnation of the clan world as a whole, people desire war (Which rarely occurs) and thus follow the wars. I don't agree with these people nor do I agree with clans that encourage this. Because of this, this has generally caused wars to become boring and less exciting because its typically the same people fighting each time. Additionally, the progression of this clan attitude has caused a spike in underhanded and dirty tactics to exist within clans, both in and out of war. Clans in general have lost a sense of honor and integrity, which is why they "do anything to win." Whether it is increased base difficulty, raising the weapon damage on weapons that are supposedly equivalent (RAT), refusing to defend, waiting forever to defend, using silent admin - whatever it is, this all plays a role in not only engaging this deadly clan attitude, but progressing it. The continuation of dirty tactics will only cause clans to engage in them more, as it shows clan that this is the "norm" and that it is acceptable to do such things. Without looking at base difficulty and such, I think this is the largest factor that has caused clan wars to go astray. Major clans simply didn't want to put up with all the cheating and nonsense that surrounded wars, so they either hardly engaged in war, stuck to internal events, or didn't war at all. In fact, it has gotten so badly that clans don't even raid anymore. Additionally, wars that do get declared oftentimes don't even begin, have issues before they begin, or end prematurely. This has caused a stagnation within the clan world and clans that label themselves as "war clans" no longer fulfill that title. This has also resulted in decreased activity across the boards for clans. TL;DR for clan theory: Clan attitude of "doing anything to win" is horrendous and has destroyed the clan community. --------------------- Now that I've explained some stuff about the clan attitude, I'll get into why I dislike VAK and VAK's connection in regards to this clan attitude. In my opinion, VAK has had the largest influence and role in advancing this clan attitude. I'm not saying VAK is responsible for the actions that current clans have taken, such as VOID's Labs, RAT's increased damage, etc. Also, I think its important to note that VAK does have good qualities and characteristics to it, some of which you mentioned. VAK has great activity and a community that sticks together, and I congratulate VAK on their work towards those goals. However, the influence that VAK has had in making this clan attitude a "norm" definitely (In my mind) renders its other good qualities. I believe that the turning point for clans was the TGI/VAK war. This war was the highlight of clans when it took place, and it was in the spotlight for the entire clan community to witness that VAK could win by cheating and doing underhanded tactics. This was one of the largest stages for clans and this showed that this was okay, that clans can be at the "top" by engaging in such behavior. In my mind, I think this was the largest advancement ever made to this clan attitude by a single clan. I'm not saying cheating didn't occur before this, because it did, but it was not at this magnitude nor were those clans at the level of influence that VAK held. Now, I'm not saying a clan that has engaged in sketchy behavior can't be a top clan. A large amount of clans these days have engaged in said behavior, but my issue with VAK is that they have consistently shown that they have no intentions of altering this behavior or reversing their effect on the clan world. This is not just about a single war because this is more than that. VAK did show that they can >be< the best during the VAK/TGI war, but the more pressing issue is that VAK showed that they can >remain< at the top through the continuation of such tactics. VAK continued to show the clan world that this was acceptable and that this was a norm that could be adopted, something which actually did unfortunately take ahold of clans. This was seen even before the TGI/VAK war (Calling cease fires against FC to avoid losing), this was seen during the TGI/VAK war, this was seen during the EL/VAK war, this was seen during the RAT/VAK war, this was seen during the UAF/VAK war. One of the major forms of cheating done by VAK has been refusals to defend, as documented in multiple wars. Also, I don't appreciate the fact that VAK "defends" by rallying for an extremely long time and then going to defend a server, thus purposefully delaying the raid. Rather than allowing your members to defend, you rally up before entering any server and choose your best fighters to go defend, thus excluding the rest and continuing to focus on "doing anything to win." I would say this is more of a minor infraction but it does continue to devalue the average member and place an emphasis on skill-oriented clans. Other forms of cheating includes base unfairness, cease fires, officer pistols, group banning, banning of individuals, sending in only VACs, etc.
Also, I think its highly hypocritical for VAK to go around and gather "opinions" by two leaders who own clans that cheat as well. Both RAT and A-SOV cheat, and the fact that you had to include that in your post is problematic.
VAK has cheated against clans such as FC (3 times), TGI, VOID, EL, UAF, etc. It would literally be so easy to go to all of these clans and document your cheating. VAK has not won a war without cheating in 4+ years, so have they ever stopped to think, "Wow, maybe we are the problem." Also, I'd just like to point out that I have never participated in a war against VAK. I do not hold some grudge against VAK for a war that I lost or fought in, but my views stem from how VAK interacts within the clan community and affects it. In my mind, it is clear that VAK has played the largest role in advancing the clan attitude of "doing anything to win" due to the fact that it is the clan that has had the largest influence that has partaken in such cheating. However, its not about one instance or one war, its about the continuation of these tactics. I cannot look at VAK with a "clean-slate" because VAK continues to engage in these behaviors. War after war VAK continues to cheat and advance this clan attitude, and yet even today the 15v15 and difficulty of SMO only continues to progress said attitude. So while yes, VAK does have some great things about it in terms of activity and perhaps the community, I think its influence and the way it affected the clan world outweighs these things. Until VAK gets its act together, I cannot look at VAK as a "top clan" or even close to one. Any clan that perhaps rallies 5, whether it be a 50 member clan or 100,000 member clan, is still better in my eyes as long as they are honorable. Not because it is stronger, not because it can beat VAK, but because it has a positive influence on the clan world and abides by a set of morals that the clans of the past used to have. Clans need to shift from this skill-oriented mindset (Not bashing VAK here, talking about devaluation of average members in general) and focus on accepting new members and adopting a set of morals as their "reputation." Rather than look at what (the irrelevant) C&G thinks, clans need to look at how they actually affect the people and clans around them. This is why VAK is a negative influence in my mind, and I truly do hope that VAK works to reverse this precedent that they have continuously set. Not just for their members, but for the clan world as a whole. But, until this day, I have not seen that happen. In fact, every single time VAK has the chance to do so, they only continue to progress this clan attitude. ------------------------ TL;DR
VAK has not only made the greatest progression of the clan attitude of "doing anything to win," but they continue to progress this clan attitude and have done >NOTHING< to stop it.
Have you ever stopped to wonder why bases are so unenjoyable? Why they are so unfair?
VAK has revolutionized these unenjoyable and unfair bases. Even though VAK refused to defend back in the days when they had stuff such as 5v25 at SMO, that fort is better than any fort they put out, including 15v15 and near even ratio numbers.
In order to not lose, VAK simply continues and continues to disappoint. |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:31 AM |
this is why people make shorter paragraphs
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Irdusial
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| Joined: 30 May 2010 |
| Total Posts: 8242 |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:31 AM |
go to wal-mart for encyclopedias
~Rabadash~ |
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tibiscus
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| Joined: 24 Nov 2008 |
| Total Posts: 9533 |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:32 AM |
tl;dr not interested enough and prolly bs
_J |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:32 AM |
| EXACTLY! This is what I said a few months ago. The entire clan world REVOLVES around VAK. It's so clear to see but people deny it because they don't really like vak. When VAK was fair the clan world was fair because EVERY CLAN looked upto VAK. Every power clan still looks upto vak and because of that they pull the same dirt stunts they do. Anything to win. |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:33 AM |
Oh also, this post does not talk about FoA/VAK at all, this is about how VAK has continued to assist in the destruction of the clan world.
The FoA/VAK conflict only further shows that what is detailed in this post is true.
VAK for some reason wants to point towards failed wars of FoA's for this year, but look at VAK's failed wars (and cheating wars) over the past >FOUR< years!
VAK is the one with the terrible track record, and its sad that they are brainwashed to think nothing is wrong. |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:35 AM |
| Also, even if you don't want to read about VAK, read the first half of the post because it pertains to >ALL< clans and doesn't even really talk about VAK. |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:36 AM |
Too long, I'll read this later.
~Lazy |
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tibiscus
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| Joined: 24 Nov 2008 |
| Total Posts: 9533 |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:37 AM |
any clan that has the clan attitude of "win at all costs" is a bad clan in my book.
_J |
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Pumped54
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| Joined: 24 Mar 2010 |
| Total Posts: 5176 |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:47 AM |
tl;dr everything is vaks fault vak are scumbags blame them for every problem in the clan world its all vak
also vak |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:48 AM |
| "Before we begin, I'm not saying VAK is at fault for everything that has happened, that would be absurd to say. However, I do believe that VAK is the clan that has made the largest advancements in the clan attitude of "doing anything to win," thus opening themselves up for criticism and blame." |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:50 AM |
I hope you're not implying that V O I D does "anything to win" or "cheats" because of a damn base that we used.
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:54 AM |
But it's also the clans fault for following their actions, if they just decided not war them and forget about them wouldn't they take a noticeable step to change their actions?
So Imo, VAK and clans are at fault here for contributing to the clan worlds destruction.
Really I wished Vaktus would reform or something, he seems like a smart and intelligent person Idk why he doesn't fix his hicom -_-
Video was a joke~ |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:55 AM |
| These View Do Not Represent The Views Of The Frost Clan Or Any Associated Parties |
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| 22 Jul 2016 09:57 AM |
@Iso
I never said that. Its just that in my personal opinion, I think Labs assisted in the devaluation of the average member, which I don't think you'll disagree with.
What I mean by this is the average person can't raid there, you generally need a well organized team with skilled & efficient Raiders.
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| 22 Jul 2016 10:05 AM |
Okay but while it takes skill/teamwork/etc to raid it you also require skill/teamwork/etc to defend it.
If you had the average person defending, the chances of losing is increased. But if the average person knows what theyre doing, they have a chance.
You need someone good to defend labs |
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| 22 Jul 2016 10:09 AM |
what the hell so much to read
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espressos
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| Joined: 10 Jun 2011 |
| Total Posts: 17628 |
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| 22 Jul 2016 10:19 AM |
Nederlandz I like this thread, I quoted you for four paragraphs because you literally think just like me.
like word for word.
Tried to hire a stylist, couldn't style me, cant keep me under control im rowdy.
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