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Re: Value of Loyalty?

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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
16 Jul 2016 01:35 AM
Word of the post: "Later"
One thing I want to say right here is that I decided to twist grammatical rules a bit. I had so much to say in so many varied topics, so to avoid paragraphs constantly, I simply indented for a new "section" and each section consisted of a natural flow of ideas and philosophies. I know, I know, some may see it as annoying to read, but you can always just take the pieces and space it out on a google document, or something of the sort, if you actually want to read it and need that to read it.

Now, I want to start by saying that I had a fair amount written out before I started this. What I mean is that I had some written, I planned to just stop and finish the rest after school, BUT I forgot to save it when I turned off my computer. So... basically I lost it all. I didn't write anything big in compare to the whole thing, or the total amount, HOWEVER it was still some time of writing, which was annoying, certainly. But more importantly, the exact tone I had then won't be the same and this difference in tone will likely carry over to here because of my... disappointment in my forgetting about this. Anyway, I'll try and replicated what I had.

"g-guestiy y u write another wordwall original post!1!1! they R STOOPID!!!!!!!!!!!"

Well, what I've been wanting to do is at least write >A< word wall or something that is equal to it a day, or, even if not a word wall write something that promotes discussion, shows analysis, or something of that sort here each day. Something that I can do to give back to you, RT, for all the beauty and fun you have given me these last few months. Even if no one reads them (save maybe one or two people) that doesn't really matter nor is the main symbolic goal. Them simply being there is what is important. That way, through them being here, I can show all my love for the community we have here and what we have collectively built, again, even if it is not reflected either directly, or even indirectly within my writing. I suppose it goes somewhat off the idea of the phrase "it's the thought that counts!" given my description, and to restate; that the importance of my writing is more in the symbolic presence of them. However, as per usual, any further discussion or comment are most certainly acknowledged and, above all, appreciated and loved. Now, I think I have probably talked on and on a bit more than I should with this, but I do want to say this, since I assume that people, some, at least, probably find this annoying. Be it because some people see me as trying to be pretentious or simply because these types of posts are out of the ordinary for RT. Well, neither! I'm simply doing it, as I said, to express my love of philosophy and discussion, while trying to show my love for all of you - RT as a whole all in the same. I do want to aplogise if I come off as so, however. The point of saying all of this, however, and of writing this post, was because I found so little I could actually write to such lengths about recently! As a result, it has been causing me to lose some interest in foruming, and I dearly don't wish that to happen! While natural, possibly just a short hiatus, I figure, if I can combat it, then it shall be done! With pen and paper and hand together! But anyway, like I said, I've talked on long enough about this. I want to make a larger post simply on this and this topic alone, but I figured I should probably do it at a post milestone (20k?) so I'll just stop this here. Most especially as it isn't even related to the main topic of this post, adding even more to why I should simply shut up now.

So:

As per the usual for these when I make my own posts, I figured I should do a small little introductory section. So, right here all I am going to do is go over a quick outline of my ideas and the topics I want to cover, as well as a little bit of the reasoning as to why I am doing this, which, generally, as is the case with plenty of my choices, not really that great nor symbolic in anyway. Much less so than the actual writing, which I suppose is unlike these normally in reality. But I digress. As one may be able to infer from the title, the topic I wanted to discuss in this post was loyalty. What it is, what we do with it, how we can use it, its benefits and detriments, all about it! Or, to simply summarise what I just said, the value, its overall purpose, of it. The "it" of course being loyalty. It's an interesting topic I've thought some about before, but the reason as to why I found it interesting was because it is so versed as a philosophy and so varied in its possibility. Every time I try myself to conclude my thoughts on it and come to some conclusion on its overall impactfulness it's a mixed answer. While, of course, such is normal, to be scattered about, and I believe it is a healthy, rational standpoint as it generally is symbolism of you having experience or knowledge in all of its topics and fields, thus have more of a wise standpoint in regards to the particular issue. However, such does not exclude from the reality that it is annoying to not have this awkward "completed" sense or feeling of completion of thought, as is generally so when reaching conclusions. However, then again, for many people, such as myself as an example, reaching conclusions is what makes you feel empty and incomplete. I'd love to go into more detail on this, however this isn't the topic of the post, so I'm going to move on here. The main reasoning for my choosing, like I said, was that it has been such an incomplete thought of mine for so long that I simply HAD to choose it an explore its depths! What possibly could have been here, waiting, unthought and found of? I simply had to find out! But, what sparked it here, this specific moment, was something tragic that did happen to an RTer whose identity I won't give away for privacy reasons. It was of break of trust and loyalty, something that sparked the mental cogs on this topic once more, their grinds insisting a written explanation of my thought! So, here it is!
Now, as I generally do think is best for these introductory sections, definitions. These are key as, of course, it sets a common ground for myself and the reader alike. While my definitions may vary from these, as may yours potentially, however there needs to be some common area of terminology so that the discussion may be present and progress in a reasonable and constructive rate. So, following that thought, I'm simply going to be using the dictionary definitions you get when you simply google the terms. Now, due to ever so slight variations, I am going to present both loyalty AND loyal, just so that there are some difference of the terms allowing flexibility in the discussion BUT not so much so where there will be a complete lack of understanding between two potential parties wishing to discuss or think of this topic further, past the original post here. So, loyalty; "a strong feeling of support or allegiance" and loyal; "giving or showing firm and constant support or allegiance to a person or institution". So, as I said, these are going to be the definitions I'm going to use and carry on with for the rest of this post. So, now a quick little discussion on those words and their meaning, yada yada, all that they could mean and do, how they could be abused, et cetra. So, both are very similar, they are both having to deal with support and allegiance, those two specific words respectively. However, some key differences lay in additional words within "loyal". These are shown in the phrase "firm and constant" implying that there is this continued support. This could be said to the identification of ideologies and ideologues. That being so as in the phrase that shows your allegiance to these beliefs, such as "I am a liberal" or "I am a conservative". It implies that there is some allegiance to the general beliefs and values of those groups, thus saying those is some form of loyalty or pledge of to them and not only what they stand for, but what they do. This is why I make certain to never identify with anything, never to say that I am a conservative, or a liberal, or anything. As this loyalty binds you in word and term to these groups and thus is innately against the symbolism of rationalistic ideas and philosophies, such as constant self evaluation of ideas, always enforcing a rapidly growing and ever changing mind, mindset, and array of ideas. Now, I did do somewhat of a dive into parties of loyalty here, however I don't want to go deeper into that specifically (right HERE, at least) as anymore would not be all that related to the already somewhat broken branch of the ideas I originally laid out for this section. However, believe me, I most certainly will expand on these ideas later on, just not now. Not here. I want this to be very in depth in its discussion of loyalty and its ideas. So, now with this all said, I am done with my introduction to the ideas and baseline for this, and thus it is that I will be now starting the discussion and presenting my ideas and philosophies on this - loyalty innate.
So, here it is, the discussion, finally. What it is. While, of course, we've already the dictionary definitions and the bare idea of what loyalty is, or, what is actually is. However, here I want to go more into what it is philosophically. The symbolism and power behind it. What it can create and destroy. So, to start, as discussed previously, it is an allegiance. So thus it is that loyalty is a bond to a being. Or, more than that, it can most certainly be to more than but a person or animal. Ideas, as I discussed with my example of ideologies, too are just as powerful with loyalty and its deep connections with humanity and humans. Loyalty to an idea is, of course, nothing eccentric of an idea. However, they too can be just as impactful, but I'll get to this later. Each and every idea we tie ourselves to is, in some manner, or actually an entirely correct manner, an act of loyalty. Sure, not in the commonly thought way, but still an entirely truthful and real way. But this too can be applied to actual physical objects all the same. One can have loyalty to, say, a brand, or a computer, or, as is most commonly seen and used, a person. So, point being of this is to put more of a philosophical attachment to "loyalty". That being that loyalty is, quite simply, a bond. Normally more of an emotional bond than anything, as generally pragmatic mindsets (from my point of view, at least) have the consistent self analysis and checking, which results in ever changing, never to be eternal connections and associations. And no, I'm not just trying to be an edgelord by marketing pragmatism as some form of a "lone wolf" type of thinking. However, it does often come as that way. While the sharing of ideas is more than common, the philosophy (again, to me, as I am about to explain) is that each presents their ideas and views and works together with one another in open and civilised discussion in hopes of finding a common truth. Thus it is, ever changing. Such is why I put not only such a label to pragmatic styles of thinking, but also instead as to why I associate them here. It is due to them being, in some form of speaking, an "anti loyalist" way of thinking. Or, in slightly less confusing terms, a mindset that challenges the ideas of loyalty and everlasting bonds, as their bonds to ideas are in existent and will forever change. While, of course, loyalty does come in many forms, such as with romantic partners, and people of pragmatic thought most certainly are not excluded from such an event, however it, the concept of loyalty, for ideas, that is, is something challenged by pragmatism. From my analysis of the two ideas, at least. While I believe my example and comparison was fitting for the topic, I do believe that I sidetracked somewhat, however, given that the topic here was simply to establish more of a philosophical view of "what is" loyalty. However, I still have more to say, so fear (or don't) not! Is not loyalty, in some way, symbolic of a collectivist thought and society? Now, I think that does go without saying, given how it is a bond, but is the symbolism not at least somewhat strong, the meaning behind it? How the "ultimate individualist" type of person would have absolutely NO connections with ANYONE ever to claim such a title? To never have any bond, any loyalty to anything? Now, call me an edgelord, but I find such a philosophy simply enlightening. The idea of freedom absolutely unheard of by anyTHING, to have absolutely no bounds to any restraint in the world! It is incredible! It is an idea of the inverse of loyalty that I find simply beautiful on levels incomparable to anything on the world! Freedom! While, of course, within a society freedom most definitely needs limits, but to the individual, to an individual with absolutely no loyalty to anything, not even the law of man, the freedom that must come, the enlightened mind that must come is something I can but hope I may one day taste, as it is truly as I desire (and a path I may need to go towards in my life). Loyalty itself and thought of it, the defining of it, produces thought incomparable, to me, at least. Even the faux taste of this freedom has me awestruck as I type! The power that the mere defining of the term can do for someone who has love to the OPPOSITE of it is incredible. But is this not what loyalty is, as I said? Nothing physical, not like a rope attaching oneself to a pole, restraining our movement, or "bonding" us to the pole. No, just as I said, it is emotional and of the mind! So thus it is that loyalty is that, a bond, a force, something incredible. But that is simply what it is, no? Not what it can do? Or how to use it? Nothing even of the value, or barely of, too. No, there is much more here!
Now, to its negatives. I think that it goes without saying that there are both detriments, negatives, and boons, positives, to loyalty and possessing it in some kind or form. However, to some people, some of it may be less important, or not even important in any form whatsoever to people. Some of which, or an example, would be to me, for example. But I'll go into this, again, later. So, as I have said likely countless times before, loyalty is a bond. This as well is something that can be interpreted either way, good or bad, so thus, I'll mention it here, as I personally see it as more negative. A bond is something that many do see as a great boon to their life, no denying. It gives people purpose and hope and a sense of value to the world. Not only that, but some form of confirmation that, again, they are valuable. Be it to a cause or a person, the value and importance is felt regardless. However, as it goes to it again, is this really something that is good, needed, or whatever be it? Is the mere feeling of this what matters, instead of the actual ability and accomplishment? Instead of having some bond to something to feel complete, why settle with that, when one may turn the world into their canvas and fulfill purpose in that manner? I personally, for these (among many) reasons as a negative. Instead, a bond has you stuck to this, never to leave unless you saw away yourself from this commitment. Again, yes, it is something that may be loved by people, and while I simply cannot understand it myself truly, I believe I do get the reasoning behind it. That being what I had described earlier on in this section - the confirmation of their value as a being or importance in a movement, et cetra. Now, onto another negative! On a slightly unrelated sidenote, due to how much I ramble in these, I decided that each indent would, instead of representing a paragraph, be more a section or idea, because if I were to follow grammatical rules here, there would be so many paragraphs due to the spurr of thoughts. Now, moving onwards. Another negative of loyalty is that it simply sets you up for disappointment. When something happens that goes against the perfect view that you had planned, the view that gave you the idea to vow your trust and thus loyalty to it, changes, it is a complete disaster. Not only is it something that will leave you with a would from the damage, from the stock failing after your years of investing, but instead it would leave you completely in shock, likely. Having poured your soul into something with the constant dedication, seeing it turn would be far more than merely sad or discomforting. It would be horrifying. IT would leave all who loved it completely in shock and unable to do anything. This damage comes as a result mostly of this. From this shock, instead of recovering and being realistic about the scenario, instead you will likely be thrown into some depression, having your heart simply torn from within you. That is how this sort of backfire would likely feel. Given the analogy earlier, of "pouring your soul into" it, even more so, as it takes the soul you poured in, and not only does it steal it from you, but it punches you with that soul you just gave it, hurting far harder than its lone soul could have ever done, and at the same time, leaving you soulless and defenceless. When your loyalty and trust is misplaced, it is simply the end. While this may not be often, all it takes is the one fault. If I were to trust someone to borrow my items, it doesn't matter if they were the one in a billion, if they took it, they took it. I'd be ruined with my moral even more so. There is nothing to describe just how horrible it is to have this happen. To a different point, it is something that takes from you. Just as say, the European Union may be described, it takes some, but then gives some. The same here. Loyalty will expect a part of you to be given up in return for its boons and its glory. What those may be, I suppose, depends as to each person. But, as I continue to say, I will get to this, LATER. You may be expected to give up some time, or some emotion, in return, you get back either emotion, or like I used earlier, the confirmation feel. The former of these two is mostly to be from a romantic relationship or something of a similar mindset, but the latter, may be from any. I discussed some of why I think that so, but to do a quick explanation here; when people, say, again, in a romantic relationship, show any form or sign of appreciation, it will give off the feel of love and appreciation. This, as I keep saying, shows and more importantly reminds people that they do have importance, even if but to one person. But in the end, it doesn't matter, as they do have that significance to them, thus it is so that they have the love for this and them and will put up with it. It's somewhat of a beauty and also a horror, to me, about loyalty. The pure blindness that will forsake people just for others to recognise them. It's not something I can understand... but, hell, other people do it, and it doesn't bother me, so I really can't find myself enough of a reason to care beyond that. But I still figure I should cover it regardless as it does have importance in this topic and discussion, thus I needed to at the very least bring it up. Now, this is an extremely specific type of problem, but something that has been on my mind lately so I figured I would include it. As I said, it is specific, and to what, is more the ideology based type of loyalty. This is more when there are contradictions in it. It's similar to the whole "backstabbing" part of loyalty. Here is when you have invested your mind into some cause, and then from no where, it does something that seems entirely unseen, especially for the cause. So, again, somewhat like the backstab, but more of a mental one (although technically both are). To the actual person, I suppose it doesn't promote all that much of a terror to them, but more to the environment around them. Usually what I see is that it comes in a denial of whatever it was, which is usually destructive to the cause they originally had going for them. It's nothing much, but like I said, it was on my mind, so I wanted to post it. So, with that said, that about concludes the negatives I wanted to list off for choosing a loyal and obedient path. Now, let me say that this was more on a fully objective scale and something that I believe may e universally agreed is detrmental. To me personally and my own take on loyalty I will do an entire section on it...... later! No, really. I will. However, before I want to showcase (mostly) objective opinion before I do that. So, with that being said...
Benefits! Finally. Now, as I said near the end of the last section, this is more designed to be objective and a more objective (however still subjective to some point, as that is the point of the discussion - to show my own opinions). Now, of course, these are all still my opinions, however I'm trying to make them more what people can all agree with. As to the symbolism and true philosophies of this, I'll save for my own entirely personal, subjective, and of course, philosophical, section of this write up. Without further ado, the first of which I see is, to restate what I said above, the bond. Again, this depends as per the individual, however to many it may be seen as positive, most, actually, I believe. I won't spend all that much time on it as I mostly covered it above, but I will do some. To start, again there is the feeling of worth and value, which may be a wonder to people. It may provide the feeling of never being alone, something most people may adore. The feeling of always having another to share with all the experiences of the world. Or, when talking on the more less materialistic basis, on completion on idea, or the joy of sharing with the world the new philosophies added to the ideology, or whatever be the loyalty to. Now, loyalty is normally a package that ships to both areas. It's shared between the two parties. If you give loyalty, normally you will gain the loyalty of another. As for some examples, say in a relationship, your partner will (normally) give the loyalty that you gave them back in their own way. Or in the case of the ideology, you will have people that also align with that and are loyal to that cause and philosophy may defend or support you in times of your need or even merely desire. This is a benefit to not just one specific person or group, but normally works to EVERYONE's advantage, which is something that, again, I am trying to do with these sections. Having the allegiance of another to come to your aid will certainly be useful, even if all it is is to but take a shot for you, as it may very well be something that could have due to the mutual loyalty of another. This is the line as to where you could either show your loyalty, or break it and show it as the faux it truly was for but the ability to abuse the other party. Now, like I said in the intro, abusing and using loyalty is another entirely other section which I wanted to go over and do my own analysis and discussion of, so I will do that, as per usual, later. But I still do want to mention what of it that I deem necessary and constructive to this particular section. It all is such an incomparable benefit of loyalty, not of you to another, but of another to you. Its power is vast and very little used. This section is mainly based on your loyalty to another, not another's loyalty to you, but, AGAIN, I felt it necessary to say this. As to another benefit, there is the benefit of leisure, in some odd sense. Using the soul analogy once more, if it is as though you gave some of your soul to another, a part of you to another, is it not that they will also have some responsibility to take care of you all the same, just as they do to your soul? Think of it as a marriage, normally both partners have some jobs or work they must do, be it around the house or out in the world, both of which are bringing benefit to the both. Similar to what I talked earlier on about, with the whole concept of mutual benefit. However, unlike before, it is truly mutual benefit, and not the twist of loyalty so suit the needs of oneself more, be it great or small, than their partner's. It is a true concept of equality and moderation, that being to perfectly adapt to as the partner or second party needs. As, of course, it can certainly be applied to the unmaterialistic purpose as well. It can be something that provides purpose to people. Not quite the "completion" rubbish I was talking about, but of a similar concept - the mentality that shapes action. Something that allows them, the loyal, abiding subject, a new mentality and look upon the world so that they may see it all in a new light and thus be able to find joy and power and achievement or whatever be their desires. That is the purpose, I see, as the unmaterialistic giving of loyalty. Not all that much more as it mostly does come from the materialistic side. Spiritual for spiritual can, to some, be rewarding, but to most, not very, and even that which is is normally taken ever lighter than it should be, but further devaluing it. However, the purpose was to find benefit of this trust, be it for oneself and/or the collective, so whatever benefit there is may still have use and purpose, thus its mention here, regardless of its simplicity or the amount of people it may impact. There will be someone who has some impact or desire for it, so thus it is so that it too is a benefit of the loyal man or woman.
So, onto its use and power. This is moving away from the more neutral and objective (while still philosophical) parts, but more into the more personal and individualistic parts of this discussion. And so it is - the power of loyalty and what precisely it is that loyalty can lead to, be it to a person or force. All of it has some power and some influence. Some may be stronger than others, or more obvious, but all have a way to twist it and abuse its power. People, of course, can be easily abused and manipulated. By emotions above all. And loyalty, assuming we are to be using some of the more philosophical reasoning I produced earlier, truly is an emotion and a mental thing more than anything. This leads to it, in my eyes, as being something that can be manipulated and controlled and, by extension, having power over the other party. Now, I think that I don't necessarily need to go deep into the ways to manipulate loyalty, as not only are plenty already commonly known, but it could certainly produce some negative effects (assuming anyone even reads this) while the point is to be a discussion. So, one of the most obvious is to but ask for requests. Normal requests, just asking for some favours from the other party. Normally trying to make it seem helpful or nice helps, of course, such as saying it will ease your nervousness or make the day easier, calmer, or whatever for each occasion. Secondly, a bit of a more forceful thing, trying to actually faux a scenario in which what you want is necessary. For example, trying to stay home from school due to a severe illness or injury, so you scrape on some minor wounds or whatnot and tell of its pain or how it disables you enough, whatever for it. Assume you have a loyal and trusting enough parent or guardian, so much so that it clouds judgement, it could be abused to your advantage. As I did hint at with the section on benefits, these are mostly through favours or actions of another party, such as in my last example, having the parent/guardian exempt you from the normally mandatory educational services. Or, as I was hinting at earlier, leading your partner on by pressuring them into giving you what you want instead of thinking rationally and going about life like so. The ability to mindlessly command other is certainly a powerful tool, however I suppose it isn't quite so. Most people won't have such high extents of loyalty to do ANYTHING that you say, however there have, of course, been cases. Take a recent example of the imperial Japanese army with how their soldiers had loyalty incomparable. Their very lives were willingly sold to their empire for but the pure honour that comes out of it. It is a beautiful yet also horrible concept in my eyes. It shows the power that can come out of it, with the individual determination that loyalty can provide, but at the same time it may do precisely the opposite of that and work entirely against it. Such a mindset, again with the example of Imperial Japan does not promote individual thought and philosophy. All it does is promote the mindset of the classic "monkey see, monkey do". Or, a completely obedient and entirely collective society. While certainly a paradise to some, as I said, it works against individual thought which is a part and right of individual freedoms in my eyes. Taking that away, even if it is just by a collectively enforced view of life, is still a horrendous act to me. Such can be the results of a society with loyalty as one of its, if not the top, priority and object in value and power. With little to none of it, you, of course, have a precise opposite, which is just as bad if not worse. An example of this would be an anarchist society I suppose, such as Somalia. I don't think I need to go into much detail of the horrors that plague that country. Murders and thievery, never safety, and of course, more. So, loyalty in a society and as a power is certainly important, but too much of it is just as detrimental, no? And the same for too little. However, moving back to some more individualistic scenarios and philosophy, it can be strong all the same. While clearly not as much so as if it is forced upon an entire collective, but to the individual, it can have strong pull. Say, in the example of a heartbreak or "cheating". I would assume that after seeing the amount of loyalty someone had placed in you, if you were to simply go and deny them this right to you, similarly to what I said earlier about this, it would crush them. Once with the act itself, again with their misplaced loyalty. The reason I am restating this is as this act of harm is precisely what it can be used for in a highly negative and personally detrimental manner. Having the power to crush someone like this, this quickly, this carelessly, is a perfect show of power and strength. Not only of the person who does so, but of the mere essence of loyalty itself. That is how it can be shown and how loyalty is reflected in this scenario. If someone does something unthinkable to you, or something that simply denies you the happiness and bond with them that you had originally had or thought of, them showing this broken bond directly to them, in the example I said of being one way, it will most certainly be a way to manipulate loyalty, that being their loyalty, and show power, that being both yours and the essence's power both. Now, to another show of it, a "zerg rush" in some way can also be the result of dedication and by extension, loyalty. While I already mentioned the imperial Japanese army here, I don't have all that much more to say on them, but I wanted to say a bit more about the power of social media and how this here can be of a result of it combined with loyalty. All we need to look at are a few of the larger YouTubers, specifically those who make video responses to other people. Plenty of these people here will witchhunt the people mentioned, flagging and disliking for no reason, (not all the time, however) even if they hadn't actually done something harmful in the original video. While, as I was implying, there are certainly times where it can be justified, thus this power being a benefit, however for the majority, not so. It normally just leads to people having trouble gaining ground both morally and reputation...ly on YouTube after this. It can cause some serious trouble, all likely due to some sense of loyalty to the person who responded to the video. So thus it is that they go and simply attack the original creator for merely having been mentioned. The invisible sense of value and completion I mentioned earlier may have some play in this all the same, I believe. Being part of some attack on a channel and forcing them into some extra actions that would have never happened had they not attacked them is proof of their power and what they can do, and since it is the larger YouTuber they listen to and follow, I suppose they have the moral justification because they had responded to them all the same, or something of this sort. Now, specifically on this example it can work in the opposite way. For example, YouTuber Kraut and Tea promotes smaller channels constantly and I have seen these channels grow as a result of him promoting them. Now, his promotions are normally through letting them onto a livestream and allowing them to argue their points in whatever it is the stream is about, so it directly shows the audience what they are like, who they are, and thus whether or not they want to continue to listen to and watch what they have been listening and watching to. However, unlike him, most people may simply swarm and support other channels at the mere mention or of them, or from the comment that the creator likes the channels, instead of seeing them and judging for themselves. It can greatly benefit these people in promoting their channels and thus helping them with their goals. It's certainly something that could work in many ways and many fashions, the "zerg rush" as I called it, or swarm of people due to some unseen loyalty. But loyalty and be as but a twist of emotion. The aforementioned examples are normally some mix of emotion and action, but what about merely bending the emotions of others? Can you not, through actions and words to those loyal to you, bend their emotions to precisely what you want simply due to their loyalty to you? Somewhat to the Japanese example once more, but this time on a more individualistic basis. But I think the rest explanation for this is self explanatory, or at the least, not necessary.
Now, here is going to be my personal analysis and philosophies upon it. Of course the rest was this as well, but this is going to be a bit more of an "I talk about what I want" here and being extremely subjective, somewhat unlike the others. To start, I'll just unveil my inner and eternally lurking edgelord - I hate it and see it as, for me personally, useless. It's something that I believe works to mostly hinder and harm the individual and their progresses in life. This may just be me, but I see a similar problem with romantic relationships and "love" in general (to materialistic purposes, that is). It is, as I have discussed many time so far, a bond. Of mental and emotional nature, too. Such is generally not to be trusted and far less rational than pragmatic thinking, that being the emotional or "romantic" styles of thought. It is something that I see as not allowing people to see what a true issue or problem may be, as they will side and stand with what is to be seen as the most morally acceptable and what seems as the most morally "appropriate" or "good" even if you would be able to describe it as such. The denial of problems for this reasoning is, in my eyes, almost as bad as the problem as it but furthers the problem and its ability to work against the "best" (if you will) end. While unrelated to the whole discussion on "loyalty" it is something I wanted to bring up as I will relate it to my points and ideas with the whole idea of it as an emotional thing. Anyway, like I said, I personally dislike the concept of it. The idea of oneself giving away some unconditioned appreciation and acceptance to another, be it an idea, ideology, or person, is to me, something that should not rationally be done whatsoever. Questioning oneself and rationalising the world is a highly important practice and philosophy in my eyes, so if it were found to be flawed, that being the host that one is loyal to, why not change your ways? Change your ways to make improvement upon yourself to better suit the ever changing reality around us? Merely a philosophy of mine. That questioning oneself is a highly important thing, that is. To always have one's own ideas and reality questioned and challenged so that the truth may hopefully one day be revealed and present. But a loyalty works entirely against that! How can one do this with such a mindset, going into it with the ideas already in their mind, never to change? Merely to argue to argue? Why not to do it for a greater, better cause! To argue to find the truth, instead! Doing this is something that is fought by the mere concept of loyalty, is it not? Such is but one of the many reasons why I see it as harmful to me as a person (and by extension, somewhat of a harmful idea). It is, overall, simply unproductive and inefficient. That is my take on that part of it, at the very least. If not to find a truth and to discover the ultimate secrets of reality and the sciences that are left undiscovered through the world, I don't see a point in life, so I suppose I'm simply ignorant here due to that mentality of mine. But I'm not sure. It seems as though the concept of this denial of change is something that will but halt progress. Now, I do believe stubbornness is good. Changing opinions should only be when there is enough information and thought into it that requires or promotes the alteration of the mindset. However, being solely to this train of thought based off of the sole purpose of it having been something one has put their trust into for some time is a concept and action I think is but ridiculous, reasoning as I have already explained. The whole nature of the inefficiency is something that I find absolutely infuriating. Now, of course, this is not the only view I have on this, of course! Like I said, it's a bond, and as I used far up in the beginning of this wall, with the analogy of the chain, it is just that. It is the link that bounds you to the pole rooted beneath the Earth. That which shackles not only you as a being, but as a spirit. Your thought forever bound in the same position, as I said. However the actions too, are what I deem as important as well. The physical body being bound to the Earth as much as the thought is equally benevolent. If your body is restrained, your thought will not matter whatsoever. Wisdom eternal may lie in your body, but if you are forever bound, what use is the wisdom, save for the personal enlightenment, if that, even? There is no purpose to you and neither is there one to a society. Why? You cannot do anything! Not with these shackles! Now of course, the idea is that this is on loyalty and not literal shackles, so I suppose I need to elaborate upon the analogy here. It is that loyalty binds you to this post and to the idea or being and thus it is by leaving it behind you are forever breaking you bond and allegiance with it, thus destroying the loyalty you had for it. The point of this? If you are loyal to it, you WILL stay forever and ever, never to leave, never unless it deems you to do so. If your dreams are of creating a space ship, something no one can even fathom being possible, then how will you possibly do something of this sort with any involvement of loyalty?! You won't! You need yourself for these types of thing and only oneself! While some of the concepts of loyalty may be important in such an adventure and task, thus potentially granting it further value, it is all lost in the bond that loyalty DEMANDS! Such is why loyalty is no beauty, no, but why determination and the will to carry forth eternally is the dominant forth in reality, no? While my example before of the "space ship" was certainly a radical example, I believe it stresses the point. Through something of determination, can not something of that sort be done, even? Is it not a feat possible? Many of the greatest scientific contributions were all thought to be impossible until it was done, so how is it not something of that sort may be done? But I digress. Point being, that through a loyalty, achievements of that sort, of that power, of that glory cannot and WILL not come about. Such is why individualism and determination, the pure strength of will for each individual is the most important part. The adaptation of thought as one grows old and is to wither and die in the dusts of civilisation is a core part of progress and determination, yes this is precisely what loyalty and its concepts fight AGAINST! Progress cannot be done through this allegiance and trust, no, but as I continue and will forever say, through the power of the individual. Loyalty, as I say, can be abused, so thus it is that it can be good, I will not deny, however to the person, the individual? Yes, that is good. However, for them to give up parts of themselves for this concept, to place their soul in the hands of others? No, it is not good. Not for them. For others and the society, potentially, (it depends as per the situation) however as I continue to say, individualism is key here and for the individual this will not benefit. But the society does need some respect of laws, some loyalty to the state. So it does have its places. But the concept of a whole cannot be across the entirety of the populace. Such an event will do as I say, to deny the free thought of the citizens and thus progress in the society. Free thought itself is just as important as this theoretical progress. While progress is of course a necessity, restricting thought and freedom of and speech for citizens is a disgusting and inhumane thought. While loyalty clearly does not does this directly, it does enforce a culture of it in some way, no? While, of course, never to the point of censorship, like I said, indirectly through its concepts and oftentimes its practices. Again as I say, there is some loyalty necessary, some trust that is needed to keep a functional society, but having it run on so is detrimental to the people and potentially the society as well. Now again, going back to me personally and my personal takes on it, I, as I think it is obvious, hate it. The bond between two things, again, as I think can be implied, isn't something I see as preferable. From what I see, the most in life and the greatest wisdom can be achieved by but the individual. Any others will not have a positive influence on it. Not only do they cause material problems such as more that is needed to care for, but as well as the constant disagreements that are entirely necessary. Is not one's own rational self enough to ensure the direction they are travelling is precisely as they desire? It can, admittedly, be nice having something else check ourselves and our progress, however the progress and achievement we make ourselves is incomparable. Not only in scope, but in the emotional regions too - the feeling of doing so too is vastly greater than doing it with another, with a guide. Their is no achievement in a guided plunge into darkness, as there is no plunge into true "darkness", that being the unknown, when you are guided through it. It seems as though when loyalty is against you, it is a tyrannical force, but when it is with you, it is a guide that defeats the journey ahead of you. You simply can't win with it, in my eyes, at least. It's a battle you cannot and will not win. So thus it is that I say, with my philosophies, to the individual, that it is better to simply drop the concept. Sure, sometimes there are situations in when there are people you will need to trust or when you will rely on a thought, an event, or anything. There are times you may need it temporarily, but I suppose that isn't "true" loyalty. I don't mean to do the "no true scottsman" and then original definitions here never implied it was permanent, however if it is not, then where is this bond or constant trust? If there is an unwilled break of the bond, is it not loyalty, truly? At least, that is my take on the concepts of loyalty, so thus it is that I believe it most certainly is not the greatest. That I believe that those invisible bonds to each of us are meant to be broken. Now? Maybe not. To some people, however? Certainly. I don't intend to bring up the "special snowflake" concept as that too is harmful. However, there are times for loyalty and there are times to not be loyal and truly independent. This is for everyone. So thus, the "true" loyalty that I see should never be done. Thus it is that it is a pure detriment to my eyes and I will continue to see it as so until my definitions of it are vastly altered. All that demotes freedom of thought and individual thinking is an enemy of me and my thought and philosophies.
So, there is my opinions and analysis on the concepts of loyalty. So, I had never actually addressed the question in the title, save for a few brief occasions, so I figured that I would save this segment, this final, ending statement, to take the time to go over it, to go over both my personal and extremely subjective views and my more objective (but still of course subjective) views to determine precisely what it is that the value of loyalty is and what power and value it should hold within a society and within the individual, in the scenario of the "common man". So, what is it then, what is the value of loyalty? What is what I continue to hype up but never say? Well, to put it simply, but rather vague, it depends. It truly depends. It's what I said at the end of my last section, it truly depends. Sometimes it does have a place, sometimes it does not. So, to put with an obvious start, or at the least, one I believe many will agree with me here. I believe that people should have some loyalty to the state. Now, this I'm going to expand on, so wait one moment. Loyalty as in some respect for the laws of the state, to start, so that society may have some progress. However, the exact same thing the average citizen should NOT be loyal to. If there are laws that are entirely unjust, specifically those which restrict the freedoms to open speech, then there should NOT be respect and trust for these laws. No, there should be a lack of to show the state how ridiculous it is that they believe they may be able to restrict basic human rights that to be taken away have to be of some of the most disgusting beings! Take my own country, Germany, where an entire ideology is banned and "hurtful speech" is ILLEGAL. This is madness and I disagree with it so thus it is that I am unloyal to these laws and will do as I wish. While, I am not of the ideology that is banned, it is still an infringement on the rights of every human to express their beliefs, even those that may be harmful ideologies. If they are as bad as they are, then in a panel of discussion will they be shot down and destroyed. No need to censor them if they are horrible and unreasonable, as is said. This is how we promote change. By people civilised and respectful beings will still having disagreements with the state and those that are horrid. While at times there of course is need for actions that are horrible, restricting this free speech here, now, is not so. To the individual, these are loyalties that should be done. They should do this. And now, to their ideas and to their future, should they be determined. Not loyal, but determined. They should not be put down by the people that wish them a pole to stay, but instead should break free to become who they wish to be. So what is it, that is likely being yelled at me this instant, the value of loyalty that I am trying to say here? What I'm trying to say is that to the state, loyalty is important. But loyalty in moderation, if you will, as free thinking and independent citizens are necessary to promote the needed change in the society to make it one that is worthy of the loyalties of all citizens. Without it, all you have is a loose bound of legal scribbling, no? Now, onto the individual, as I promised. They need to be able to be able to be who they are, to see the future in their eyes, not the eyes of those they look up to, or the government, or whatever be it that has their trust! Their eyes are THEIR eyes, not the eyes of their superiors! If you cannot bear witness to the heavens themselves, the stars above, as clearly and beautifully as they are, who are you to walk the Earth and claim you are a free individual? Without such a basic right as the ability to think fully and freely for themselves, to be the independent individual that we all can and may be, then what is the beauty for them in life? What is the beauty in living a life? Not even that, but being a husk that lives life as something as barren as an ad - a promotion for whatever it is your loyalties go out to. With this as the mentality of the citizen, then how will anything be done? How will the world be? What would it even mean to be an individual, to be independent, to even be human? What would all of this mean without these rights of individuality? Something for another day, I suppose. But the point of this rambling is some attempt to poetically explain the value of loyalty to the individual. None. The individual is just that, the individual. Who they are and plan to be shapes the amount of loyalty that is necessary and that they desire in life. If they cannot be who they want to be due to a loyalty, why is it a necessity for them? Well, it is just that, it isn't a necessity. Loyalty is, as I continue and will say, emotional. It is the key to both the restrictions of the mind and the freedoms of the mind - mental. So, which will it be? Do you wish to see the stars with your eyes, or through the state’s eyes? That is loyalty’s value to you, the individual.

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AlansDepartment is not online. AlansDepartment
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
Total Posts: 1871
16 Jul 2016 01:36 AM
[ Content Deleted ]
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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
16 Jul 2016 01:37 AM
Fun facts:

My work on this post got deleted TWICE
This post is the absolute max amount of characters for a single post
-I had to trim a good two thousand characters off of this so I could fit it all in one post
No memes, lots of rambles

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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
16 Jul 2016 01:37 AM
"true autism"
i own the autism force 4 on steam so i suppose it fits



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OderExtremistFelix is not online. OderExtremistFelix
Joined: 20 Apr 2016
Total Posts: 4175
16 Jul 2016 01:37 AM
Actually im gonna read all of this.

Hopefully I can learn something new.


Hey, that's mildly adequate
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ginnypig102 is not online. ginnypig102
Joined: 25 Nov 2012
Total Posts: 4088
16 Jul 2016 01:41 AM
Is this chapter one?
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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
16 Jul 2016 01:42 AM
"Is this chapter one?"

1/264

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ginnypig102 is not online. ginnypig102
Joined: 25 Nov 2012
Total Posts: 4088
16 Jul 2016 02:12 AM
I actually read all of this... I'm heading back to OT.
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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
16 Jul 2016 02:34 AM
well, I'd be damned

I wasn't expecting a single person to read this

#justguestlythings
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Vendettathegreat is not online. Vendettathegreat
Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Total Posts: 10515
16 Jul 2016 02:34 AM
I took 10 minutes to read the entire post, 9000 words in all.

First, let me say **detrimental because I noticed that typo halfway through the post.

Second, I appreciate the thought you put into posts such as these, however, in my critical and honest opinion, I do believe 75% of your post is a combination of you restating your earlier thoughts and objectives (you mentioned this issue early on), elaborating on examples beyond what is necessary for even a thorough understanding of what you hoped to communicate, reminding us that you are speaking your opinion, and jumping sporadically between subtopics in a manner which I find, frankly, to be highly distracting and divergent of the flow of your post.

Third, consider your opinion. You lean strongly toward the belief that there is no meaning in life. You also probably consider this, along with your eventual "goal" mentioned in the post, as an anti-loyalist view. But this is where you contradict yourself. To be aligned against meaning, against labels and attachments, is to be loyal to such ideas in and of itself. I believe you brought this up once, but never elaborated as much as I had hoped. Your willingness to disregard human constructs such as hope, commitment, and purpose alarm me and give me pause for thought. You do remind us that there is no good answer to your question ("it all depends), however, your post is still oriented in the direction of disdain and doubt for loyalty in general. I can tell you firsthand that loyalty has come back to bite me many times in my life, however, I have a "loyalty" to the concept of loyalty because of its human nature. I know I cannot hope to ascertain a perfect discretion in my application of loyalty. I know that I can only do so much. And this is what makes me appreciate things that much more. Being human is not a curse, nor it is "pointless", as I predict you may feel to some degree. Being human is something beautiful and complex. Every error I make, every mistake is a chance to improve. If I trust someone and they betray me, I do not feel remorse or regret for trusting them. I simply let it go. This is even goes as far as Roblox. I have been scammed before, and I was angry about it, but I knew that people are only human and our complex minds will never have a true moral obligations. We can train ourselves against bad habits and ideas, but they still remain, just like disloyalty.

Finally, I would like to address some major factors I believe you left out of your discussion. One of these is family. The complex interactions between family members and their corresponding loyalties is something I could easily make a wordwall from. Another thing to consider about this topic is the independence between your loyalty and the reciprocal loyalty. You stated that these are connected, however, I strongly believe in the argument that loyalties are entirely and unequivocally separate from each other. No matter how much someone loves someone else, it cannot always be returned. I may have a best friend, but I can never be certain his loyalty is affected by mine. Again, these are just a few small ideas for that point. Lastly, the most drastic concept missing from this post is religion. I understand how the rules of Roblox could inhibit you expressing your full thoughts on it, but I still think you could have brought it up for a short while. Religion has such a close tie to loyalty that it's disturbing. If you ever have a follow up "wordwall" to this one, please address that.

Overall, I would consider this a very insightful post. And again, my only true complaint is that it could have been much more concise and much less "ramble-y" and "wordy". Thank you for giving me an insight into your opinions regardless.

-- VTG


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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
16 Jul 2016 02:37 AM
First of all, I want to say that yeah, it was so much of a giant ramble

I felt that each time I restated it I was adding something new, but eh, it can't be so everytime. Since it all got deleted a few times by this time I was just thinking "okay, I'm just going to write it as it comes to me and be done with it". I also took a few breaks in it over the course of quite a few hours, so it probably resulted in my losing my train of thought, hence why I was restating. I just read the first part of your reply, I'd love to respond to the rest, but I just want to say this right here.

#justguestlythings
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KoolWaterLK is not online. KoolWaterLK
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Total Posts: 90585
16 Jul 2016 02:40 AM
I read some of this but some of it I feel is kind of rambling and a little hard to understand but overall I feel like maybe I'm just stupid
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ben_simon is not online. ben_simon
Joined: 24 Feb 2016
Total Posts: 39
16 Jul 2016 02:40 AM
i started reading this last year and still haven't finished


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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
16 Jul 2016 02:59 AM
"First, let me say **detrimental because I noticed that typo halfway through the post."

whoopsies, my bad on that

"75% of your post is a combination of you restating your earlier thoughts and objectives (you mentioned this issue early on), elaborating on examples beyond what is necessary for even a thorough understanding of what you hoped to communicate, reminding us that you are speaking your opinion, and jumping sporadically between subtopics in a manner which I find, frankly, to be highly distracting and divergent of the flow of your post."

I don't know if I would say that 75% of it was that, but I'd definitely say a fair amount was. Like I said in the last post I made, I do think that I made some extra contributions to the point I was making each time I restated myself, so I don't think it was all that worthless and hence why I am thinking it is a far less of a percentage. But yeah, believe me, it was so much of a ramble. That's mostly due to my style of writing. I like having long, discussion and "conversation" type of constructed or based writing. I love it when it feels natural, so that's what I try to accomplish, hence why I never fix the rambles and simply let it all flow.

"You lean strongly toward the belief that there is no meaning in life"

I wouldn't quite say that was something I pushed, at least I don't think so. What I tried to emphasise was individuality and the individual's goals and hopes. So, more so that I had the philosophy that normally, no, but instead the meaning comes from the individual and whatever beauty they themselves see in life.

"Your willingness to disregard human constructs such as hope, commitment, and purpose alarm me and give me pause for thought. You do remind us that there is no good answer to your question ("it all depends), however, your post is still oriented in the direction of disdain and doubt for loyalty in general.

My bad if I came off as that much, it wasn't more so that which I was going towards. I believe I had heavy emphasis and value which I placed on determination, which was something I made sure I depicted as a highly valuable trait of humans and individuals alike. Commitment, I suppose, falls close enough to that to where I would say that I do value it and understand both the beauty and the power of it. Purpose, as I said in the above response, I do have a high regard for and I see the beauty in it as it is what is the driving force for the determination or commitment of humanity, no? As for hope, you'd be right entirely in that regard. It seems as though it is something that is not based upon a pragmatic viewpoint in my opinion and is instead something that is made of unthoughtful, impersonal thoughts which don't promote the individuality and thought that I view as progressive and powerful. Although this is just me here.

"I can tell you firsthand that loyalty has come back to bite me many times in my life, however, I have a "loyalty" to the concept of loyalty because of its human nature. I know I cannot hope to ascertain a perfect discretion in my application of loyalty. I know that I can only do so much. And this is what makes me appreciate things that much more"

I think that is a beautiful and very wise viewpoint. Something personally I would not apply to myself, at least at this moment I would not say so, however I do respect and admire it greatly.

"Being human is not a curse, nor it is "pointless", as I predict you may feel to some degree. Being human is something beautiful and complex. Every error I make, every mistake is a chance to improve. If I trust someone and they betray me, I do not feel remorse or regret for trusting them. I simply let it go. This is even goes as far as Roblox. I have been scammed before, and I was angry about it, but I knew that people are only human and our complex minds will never have a true moral obligations. We can train ourselves against bad habits and ideas, but they still remain, just like disloyalty"

I agree oh, so very much with this! I even wrote another lengthy post on the whole concept of humanity and the beauty of it, and I do agree all so much with this. Like I said above, I by no means see life as pointless and the beauty I see in humanity and human nature is so, so very vast! The philosophy of improving upon every error is something I too hold tear as it is such a valuable trait of adaptation and thus determination. The will to forever change due to personal thought and experience to accompany the new world is an absolute beauty and a tool completely incomparable! I believe I did some praising of adaptation in the post above, too. I love this philosophy so much as well. And the rest is entirely true as well. It's all relative and that regardless of what we as an individual do, collectively, it will all be varied. I think that is beautiful in the complexity of mind as you described all the same.

"One of these is family"

I think I touched on this a little, but I don't believe I did nearly as much as I should. I too would love to revisit this and add my opinions on this as well. I think that loyalty to family members is in a way similar to the loyalty between partners. Something that can be broken and abused easily, yet at the same time provide some of the greatest joys in the world. A very large topic as well.

"Another thing to consider about this topic is the independence between your loyalty and the reciprocal loyalty. You stated that these are connected, however, I strongly believe in the argument that loyalties are entirely and unequivocally separate from each other. No matter how much someone loves someone else, it cannot always be returned. I may have a best friend, but I can never be certain his loyalty is affected by mine"

I think this is something that is both a beauty and yet a horror of loyalty. It shows the individuality between people yet also can lead to some horrific and heart wrenching moments just as easily as the best moments in their time. I don't believe that it will always be returned, but I think for the most part it will be. In the full extent? Not normally. However, I think often times that, yes, it is generally mutual. However, I suppose reexamining this, looking at divorce rates, this could actually be quite wrong.

"Lastly, the most drastic concept missing from this post is religion. I understand how the rules of Roblox could inhibit you expressing your full thoughts on it, but I still think you could have brought it up for a short while. Religion has such a close tie to loyalty that it's disturbing. If you ever have a follow up "wordwall" to this one, please address that."

I agree oh so much yet again. I wanted to talk some about it here and there, but I simply never did. I'm not quite sure why, to be honest. It wasn't so much in fear of the ROBLOX rules but more just... I didn't? I'm not sure. I suppose one thing I did here and what I wanted to do was to do a very basic overview of the concept and my general opinions of. This is definitely something I wanted, want, and likely will do. As to the follow up, I most certainly want to do one that is far more detailed and does include analysis on more of these topics.

" And again, my only true complaint is that it could have been much more concise and much less "ramble-y" and "wordy". Thank you for giving me an insight into your opinions regardless."

I agree as well. But please, thank YOU for your insight on this. Just as I described, the challenging of ideas is beautiful and all the progress in the world. Your insight to this and thought provoking post was a complete wonder to find and something I would have NEVER expected on this thread. Thank you so much for that.

#justguestlythings
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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
16 Jul 2016 03:02 AM
"I read some of this but some of it I feel is kind of rambling and a little hard to understand but overall I feel like maybe I'm just stupid"

No, you're not. It is very ramble-y. It was a bit of an intentional design as I'm somewhat of a person who does ramble often and I wanted this to seem very natural, as though a conversation or "discussion" as I say a lot. Most of my word walls this size aren't quite as ramble-y and are far more concise, (but still somewhat ramble-y) but now I know that this much rambling is too much thanks to the feedback so far. Thanks for the comment, it truly does help. I know not to ramble as much in the future, haha. I thought I'd try a bit of a change in style, but it certainly wasn't the best change, I take it.

#justguestlythings
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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
16 Jul 2016 03:04 AM
I do want to thank the responses so far, though. Like I've said in some of my replies, I'm always fairly ramble-y, but I tried it a bit more on this post, but now I know just how bad that can be. Thanks so much for the feedback, it really means a lot.

#justguestlythings
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oShelby is not online. oShelby
Joined: 13 Jul 2016
Total Posts: 2273
16 Jul 2016 03:23 AM
holy thats alot of words

you losted me after 7 lines


Im a soccer mom, who wants gatorade
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swordwilder is online. swordwilder
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Total Posts: 11505
16 Jul 2016 03:24 AM
I'll take a bag of loyalty for 800


https://www.roblox.com/Signature-for-forums-item?id=424802041
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MrShogai is not online. MrShogai
Joined: 06 Sep 2014
Total Posts: 420
16 Jul 2016 03:34 AM
THE WORDS ARE...EVERYWHERE


https://www.roblox.com/Ruby-Rose-item?id=395007036 anime is life
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Lyfed is not online. Lyfed
Joined: 22 Jun 2015
Total Posts: 4732
16 Jul 2016 07:04 PM
Gonna read this instead of my book before going to sleep

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Invictium2G is not online. Invictium2G
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 16670
16 Jul 2016 07:04 PM
I'll admit I skipped to the last line

But

That is deep
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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
18 Jul 2016 03:17 AM
why did you noobs bump this

#justguestlythings
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Zartanios is not online. Zartanios
Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Total Posts: 2549
18 Jul 2016 03:22 AM
*crashes into wall of text* *car explodes*


AAAAH MY LEG


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GuestIy is not online. GuestIy
Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 19099
18 Jul 2016 03:23 AM
"*crashes into wall of text* *car explodes*


AAAAH MY LEG"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4cafPOBubc

#justguestlythings
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angrybird16755 is not online. angrybird16755
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Total Posts: 16482
18 Jul 2016 03:23 AM
the text wall is big enough to satisfy trump
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