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Re: How did competitive gunfighting kill clans?

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FuutProject is not online. FuutProject
Joined: 08 Dec 2012
Total Posts: 4232
07 Oct 2015 10:12 AM
I hear this a lot on c7g.

My personal reason I think it damaged clans is the fact it killed the idea of advancing into new tech.
I understand the reason of having a fair advantage, and a fair gun-base between wars. But with tech at your base encourages new ideas and new members.

I also think people who got skilled at RCL flew up their ego, and that they could go to any group they want and get a HR spot (which they usually end up doing)

It also made it where any gun-group that did NOT have RCL standards, were shunned and thrown into the shun pile of shunned ;c

But these are personal opinions that could easily be wrong and biased.
What are yours?

I'd like to hear both sides.
One side of an argument is never enough.
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Aslum is not online. Aslum
Joined: 09 Dec 2011
Total Posts: 7937
07 Oct 2015 10:14 AM
A) it's C&G
just kidding lol

idk i didnt really read the post sorry but from the title
it didnt rly destroy any of it

it's just idiots in them, and plus as tech advanced people brought up new sht which got boring, leads left, so it wasnt really anything to do with 'rcl' or 'competitive gun fighting'
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FuutProject is not online. FuutProject
Joined: 08 Dec 2012
Total Posts: 4232
07 Oct 2015 10:19 AM
then why is rcl constantly blamed for it .-.
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Gannex is not online. Gannex
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Total Posts: 7317
07 Oct 2015 10:21 AM


RCL isn't a clan.

People dedicate their time to RCL.

Therefore, people aren't dedicating their time to clans but instead RCL.
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RyferionPrime is not online. RyferionPrime
Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3741
07 Oct 2015 10:27 AM
Well, a clan I was recently in is a blend of C7G, rp, and fps. We had 300 members with at least 10-15 at our base 24/7. On good days, we rallied 30 people.
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StratusNinja is not online. StratusNinja
Joined: 04 Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6144
07 Oct 2015 10:33 AM
If a clan doesn't have RCL gods in it it's bad. - C&G

// if you're not joining Stratus you're doing something wrong
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Valhalas is not online. Valhalas
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Total Posts: 67829
07 Oct 2015 10:38 AM
When competitive third person gunfighting was introduced in late 2011/early 2012 (coinciding with the rise of RCL), the skill and standard gap between experienced/competitive players and novice players rapidly shot up.

As a result, novice players looked toward a more universal/familiar technique (FPS, mostly) which is subject to a much smaller skill gap due to its simplicity.

Third person fighting requires many calculations and a very concentrated train of thought, of which many people either cannot perform or are unwilling to learn to do. As a result, they look to other clan genres (WWII, Colonial, etc etc) to compensate for both their lack of willingness to engage in a competitive environment and their everlasting interest in war-related groups.

As ROBLOX is a game designed and played mostly by a younger (7-12) audience, they will look to the most simplistic/easier and less competitive and critical environment they can while also enjoying what they want to enjoy, combat and war.

As a result of an overly competitive and complex fighting technique, clans have been held to a much higher standard in terms of combative abilities. If a clan is unable to meet these standards, they will be ridiculed and and criticized because their members are "noobs".

This is where powerclans come to play. The growth of clans depends on not only the willingness of novice players to join clans (which, as mentioned above, is not apparent considering the option to opt out of a competitive environment and join other groups), but also the willingness of leaders to even consider letting them join.

So, the clan community has isolated itself to a select group of people (those that are skilled coupled with those who have potential and desire to become skilled fighters) and thus the clan world is not only stagnant, but shrinking as other genres (less competitive genres), like sword clans and historic/political clans, proceed to grow and capture the attention of the novice majority.

As ROBLOX grows (and it will continue to grow), then clans will forever shrink or, at best, stagnate, because contemporary war clans are held to such high combat/"skill" standards that novice players are unwilling/unable to adapt to, and leaders feel obligated to abide or else face the penalty of being a punching bag or laughingstock.

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Gannex is not online. Gannex
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Total Posts: 7317
07 Oct 2015 10:41 AM


I bet you enjoyed typing that.
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Valhalas is not online. Valhalas
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Total Posts: 67829
07 Oct 2015 10:43 AM
I did because it is a well-supported argument and anyone who has observed the growth of ROBLOX and the decline of clans mixed with the prevalence of competitive gunfighting would agree with my thesis too.

Anyone who chooses to ignore it is in denial or just too hung up on their ego.
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BenBonez is not online. BenBonez
Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Total Posts: 19362
07 Oct 2015 04:32 PM
Great post Valhalas, the only thing off was the the year (RCL got popular early 2013)
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FuutProject is not online. FuutProject
Joined: 08 Dec 2012
Total Posts: 4232
07 Oct 2015 04:55 PM
Well Vals, I have to say that is the best argument I've heard.

Less c7g type clans (what I'm use to I guess)
and now there are so many sub-genres with novices leading the way.

Star-Wars is what I think of first off.
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Valhalas is not online. Valhalas
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Total Posts: 67829
07 Oct 2015 09:03 PM
I could have sworn it was 2012. o_O My mistake.
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55Altair is not online. 55Altair
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Total Posts: 6272
07 Oct 2015 09:13 PM
I don't get people who pretend that this game requires more than basic motor skills and game knowledge you can learn in your first hour of RCLing. People like Paul were genuinely awful in 2013 and only got good today because they almost never stopped practicing. I don't know why they chose to dedicate 2 and a half years of free time to RCL but that's not really my business. RCL's community is one that's insanely easy to break into if you have thick skin, since it's mostly made up of aggressive black people and 13 year olds. If you have a couple of weeks to burn, you can be a top 25 RCLer.

That said, I don't think RCL really affected groups, it was just part of their natural progression. Long before RCL, clans were looking for a 'competitive' (or as close as you can get to it with garbage ROBLOX servers) format in which to fight final battles since no one wanted to arguer about raid wins or endurance wars anymore. Luckily, final battles were killed by myself and a few other people when we fought for Team Domino and ended up beating UAF, but like I said, this was the natural progression. If it wasn't for RCL, clans would be using wARC, Reapers, or Arsenals. RCL was a catalyst, not a cause. It gave clans a tool that they happened to be searching for.

Good fighters will always be assets, but they always have been. Remember AceSlayer a few years ago, who was basically the 'best' sword fighter and was given a high rank for free in clans like FEAR, RAT, and I believe even UAF. This is the way it's always been, it isn't the fault of RCL.

RCL didn't kill the idea of advancing into new tech, either. If anything, RCL is at the forefront of new tech. For a while it was the most efficient gun script since it used the then-new RemoteEvents to reduce server lag. This seem to be a common misconception, but one mostly held by people that don't know what they're talking about. Advancements are a natural progression for any community. People will always make new things, people will always modify existing things. In this way, I think RCL actually pushes clans forward. It's really open ended and easy to modify, since almost every clanner is, at this point, familiar with it.
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Valhalas is not online. Valhalas
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Total Posts: 67829
07 Oct 2015 09:48 PM
It is important to understand that ROBLOX's player base consists primarily of children ages 7-12, who, for the most part, haven't yet developed motor skills as the older players have. Their brains are far less developed than most of the clan community, and as such their minds work in a very simplistic way, and it is significantly harder for them to adapt or learn the practice of third person fighting, especially with ROBLOX's mechanics.

This said, why take the time to learn when the tools to stick with what you know are right in front of you? Why take the time to adapt and learn third person fighting (whether your brain is developed enough or not) when you can join other clans which discourage or simply don't use such techniques.

This type of thinking has barred the majority of ROBLOX from clans, which is why, as you say, most clanners are familiar with third person fighting; because the clan community is so small and has not grown significantly, or rather, proportionately with ROBLOX.

I will make an example. HEX was designed as a competitive arena game. The turn-off is that competitive players and experienced fighters used SS's/owen's decision to keep a TPS aspect to lodge an advantage into their gameplay. HEX was very popular at first, and while some players (older and more competitive players) stuck with the game and adapted to its mechanics, most sought out other games/environments which are less frustrating and more user-friendly/easier to learn, or which are more familiar in terms of gameplay (for example, the substantial difference in popularity between HEX and first person shooter games).

The point is, most players on ROBLOX will seek out alternatives to a competitive environment in which the skill gap is so large that it is frustrating to continue. Players, being mostly preteens/toddlers, are unwilling to deal with such frustration.

While I agree that organizations/system like RCL and wArc have developed clans on a technological and competitive scale, this has failed, for the most part, to bring in new, more novice players to clans due to its competitive nature. What new players seek in a game is not who can aim the best or dodge the best, but the simple enjoyment of clans as a whole.

While there are many clans I can name which combine both leisure and skill/strength, it is not enough. Short-term powerclans or "RCL" clans are not fun. Perhaps to more experienced users who seek to dominate their opponents and could care less about the environment or theme of the clan, it is fine. However, it is important to think about the bigger audience. The larger audience is unwilling to change what they prefer or are familiar with when they can stick with their interests in other groups instead.

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Collin201 is not online. Collin201
Joined: 27 May 2011
Total Posts: 12394
07 Oct 2015 09:53 PM
"c7g"

contact the exterminators immediately



print("Join Excalibur Imperium: free home-baked cookies.")
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RogueRebeI is not online. RogueRebeI
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Total Posts: 6839
07 Oct 2015 09:54 PM
When you also have enough time to write about why the clan world is failing

And realize nobody has accomplished anything about it
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Valhalas is not online. Valhalas
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Total Posts: 67829
07 Oct 2015 09:55 PM
"And realize nobody has accomplished anything about it"

No single person can change an entire way of thinking.

It requires intensive development, both technologically and philosophically, not to mention time.
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xDreadGolem17x is not online. xDreadGolem17x
Joined: 28 Sep 2015
Total Posts: 275
07 Oct 2015 10:07 PM
Well it finally makes sense in a way, but i think not only rcl is the reason why clans are dying. It is the lack of members skilled or not no longer willing to be intrigued due to us having a more "get guud, or gtfo" persona.

Tbh this forum consists of mostly idiots, which are recognized by the ROBLOX community as a whole. WE pretty much gave everyone a bad taste.
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FuutProject is not online. FuutProject
Joined: 08 Dec 2012
Total Posts: 4232
08 Oct 2015 09:49 AM
How would y'all go about fixing it?
Since we have turned away all the novices coming into Roblox.

How can c&g clans be brought back to life?
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ArmedSurvivor is not online. ArmedSurvivor
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Total Posts: 13942
08 Oct 2015 09:54 AM
OO #1

Want to be in the 2016 C&G list? Post here.
http://www.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=171382581
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FuutProject is not online. FuutProject
Joined: 08 Dec 2012
Total Posts: 4232
08 Oct 2015 09:56 AM
@Armed
Honestly OO has been one of the best clan I've seen/been in in a long time.
It has plenty of novices, and I've seen those novices genuinely get better with the amount of trainings we do.
It's fun, the officers are genuine people who realize other people are not just there to yell at.

I was so impressed, I plan on staying a long time.
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ArmedSurvivor is not online. ArmedSurvivor
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Total Posts: 13942
08 Oct 2015 09:59 AM
Well, when we was planning to open the group we said we should be chill and "good" guys.
I like hearing this kind of feedback.
Enjoy your staying, if you have any questions feel free to message me.

Want to be in the 2016 C&G list? Post here.
http://www.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=171382581
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Komnenos is not online. Komnenos
Joined: 25 Jan 2011
Total Posts: 8299
08 Oct 2015 10:48 AM
I'm glad I've seen someone other than myself expressing views regarding "alternate" clan genres. They are the ones accepting all of the new members and when C&G starts talking about them is when stuff is going to get done.
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bloxman26 is not online. bloxman26
Joined: 27 May 2009
Total Posts: 7509
08 Oct 2015 11:36 AM
Finally people realizing this. Valhalas and altair are 100% correct, but I believe they're missing 1 very important conclusion.

The ending of final battles may have seemed good at the time; however, the emphasis on raid wins that was so long pushed for has resulted in heavy regulation and debate over "fairness" of a base. Look at any major war that has been dramatized in this forum in the last 2-3 years if you need an example. This coupled with the uber-competitive, shame-driven(punching bag, laughing stock) culture of clans has outright destroyed wars.

Wars are the central piece of the clan world and without them clans die. This is what is occurring.

Why did those 2 things destroy wars? People want to win. If they don't win, they're shamed and bullied(often relentlessly) by the rest of the clan community. When they want to win, they're going to do everything they can to remove any advantage the enemy can have in a base and give themselves as many advantages as possible. When 2 people negotiating war terms want these 2 things, they butt heads and will not agree. This is what was missed; the absolutely terrible community which now exists.

Did competitive gunfighting create this shame culture? I don't think so, but I do believe that there is a correlation to the rise of competitive gunfighting(RCL) and clan culture developing into the way I described it. That is not to say it didn't exist that way since the beginning, because it certainly did. I do believe simply from my own experience that it has worsened.

I think that, as altair said that RCL is the natural progression, that the downfall of the clan community is the natural progression as well. The clan community has progressively gotten older, and the bullying has gotten increasingly harsher and more intense. Leaking pictures, outside(dirty) conversations, Dos attacks, etc. are all very rampant today and did not occur nearly as much 4 or 5 years ago.

A lot of people may tell others to simply deal with the bullying or just grow some thicker skin. Some people lack the ability to do this, and others see just leaving as the better option. Clans are no longer fun when everything you do is a risk to being ridiculed by the rest of the community. Why deal with it, why bother growing thicker skin when you can simply go elsewhere to find your fun?

The only thing holding people back is attachment. From their clan, the community, friends, or hope that the clan world will return to normal. They hesitate to really participate as clans did years ago, leading back to the lack of wars point I made earlier.


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FuutProject is not online. FuutProject
Joined: 08 Dec 2012
Total Posts: 4232
08 Oct 2015 06:13 PM
These points are all way better and explained better than I thought I would get,
and I thank you all for your insight and opinions that show such a great argument why war-clans are falling short of the old viewpoint of clans.

But my question does remain.

What can we do to fix this?
Create a community of war-clans with fair-terms? (so everyone inside community allies/wars)
Try to join all the power-clans that ALREADY exist into a community of same-rules.

Just kinda go with it until we naturally come back around to "good ol days"
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