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Re: Why not everyone can succeed in a capitalist society

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phoniex is not online. phoniex
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Total Posts: 34985
23 Aug 2015 12:30 PM
Free market capitalists LOVE to toss out the phrase "Everyone can succeed, and those who don't are lazy, unskilled, or both." I shall now explain why this is bullcrap:

The thing is, capitalism NEEDS inequality in order to work. In order for the millionares to exist, the middle class and even the poor need to exist as well. There are always exceptions who manage to crawl out of the muck, but as a whole, capitalism needs people to be poor.

Why does capitalism need people to be poor? Well, so that the money of the rich stays valuable. Due to inflation, if everyone could succeed, everyone would. After all, who DOESN'T want to succeed? And if everyone, or even a majority of people succeed, the money will become worthless!

Secondly, capitalism needs people to work in the low-level and mid-level jobs so that the high-class can succeed. What I mean is, if say, a steel mangate wants to become successful, he also needs a ton of drones to run the steel mills, and since that work isn't valuable, they'll be paid less.

In other words, society would be exactly the same if everyone made 10 dollars a week, and if everyone made 10 million dollars a week.

Tl;Dr: Stop saying anyone can succeed in a capitalist society. If you are going to support free market capitalism, at least be honest.

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bbr0b is not online. bbr0b
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Total Posts: 2766
23 Aug 2015 12:31 PM
yes
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redlego98 is not online. redlego98
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Total Posts: 8870
23 Aug 2015 12:31 PM
OP fails to include that the poor in a capitalist society are much richer than those than in a society that is not capitalist.

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
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bbr0b is not online. bbr0b
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Total Posts: 2766
23 Aug 2015 12:32 PM
"OP fails to include that the poor in a capitalist society are much richer than those than in a society that is not capitalist."

you are implying a non-capitalist society has ever existed
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phoniex is not online. phoniex
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Total Posts: 34985
23 Aug 2015 12:32 PM
@Red

What?

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Nickmaster101 is not online. Nickmaster101
Joined: 19 May 2009
Total Posts: 4232
23 Aug 2015 12:33 PM
@redlego

That has nothing to do with his argument. He was just saying the class mobility that is so often flaunted as a benefit of capitalism is pretty much nonexistent.
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Nitro509 is not online. Nitro509
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Total Posts: 11170
23 Aug 2015 12:33 PM
the question is how the rich avoid middle class and poor class to become rich, which is a major flaw in your thread
i mean, if you do get a really good education (which requires money of course, i can see the rich keeping an eye on this with a lot of control, this is where i agree with you) and try to get a job, you will become rich depending on your education
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redlego98 is not online. redlego98
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Total Posts: 8870
23 Aug 2015 12:34 PM
"you are implying a non-capitalist society has ever existed"

There are non capitalist societies, the Soviet Union, for example.

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
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bbr0b is not online. bbr0b
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Total Posts: 2766
23 Aug 2015 12:34 PM
@nitro

good education does not ensure a job
good education requires money else you'll spend the rest of your life trying to pay debts
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bbr0b is not online. bbr0b
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Total Posts: 2766
23 Aug 2015 12:36 PM
"There are non capitalist societies, the Soviet Union, for example."

the soviet union was state-capitalist
it was literally the same as a capitalist society except the party members were the ones who leeched off the working classes work instead of the bourgeois
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crezymedwelf is not online. crezymedwelf
Joined: 02 Aug 2013
Total Posts: 4875
23 Aug 2015 12:37 PM
i think we need to get ri d of money
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phoniex is not online. phoniex
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Total Posts: 34985
23 Aug 2015 12:38 PM
@bbr

Exactly. No matter how far back in history you go, there has never been a truly classless society. It's always been about the high class explotiing the low class for personal gain.

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GhostOfThePastP2 is not online. GhostOfThePastP2
Joined: 20 Mar 2015
Total Posts: 3737
23 Aug 2015 12:38 PM
None the less, OP makes a good point for the low class of our society. It's a shame how so much potential DOES get snuffed out due to the lack of care, and equality in America. I hate going for a walk around my town, that is Upper-Middle class, and seeing that mere streets away, you have so many handfuls of impoverished people, whom are homeless, or disabled. Many of which, I take the time to help, and some of the things you hear, if you just listen, are disturbing. I'd say 8 out of 10 wanted to succeed, and had the desire no doubt, but due to foreclosure, unemployment, discrimination, and even their support structures, friends, families, churches, and such have left them a shell of what they wanted to be.
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redlego98 is not online. redlego98
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Total Posts: 8870
23 Aug 2015 12:38 PM
"Exactly. No matter how far back in history you go, there has never been a truly classless society. It's always been about the high class explotiing the low class for personal gain."

Touche.

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Nitro509 is not online. Nitro509
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Total Posts: 11170
23 Aug 2015 12:41 PM
@phoniex

it's not like high class or low class societies can exist anyways with the purchase of products needed for survival depends on a currency, which basically rates who you are

even with the absence of a currency, say trading, would still not cease a high/low class society
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phoniex is not online. phoniex
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Total Posts: 34985
23 Aug 2015 12:43 PM
@Nitro

What? I'm sorry, but I can't understand your argument. Can you word it a bit differently please?

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Nitro509 is not online. Nitro509
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Total Posts: 11170
23 Aug 2015 12:46 PM
@phoniex

what i'm trying to say is, no society can ever exist with classes if currency exists

regardless of it's absence, say trading as an alternative, would still render a society with classes
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phoniex is not online. phoniex
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Total Posts: 34985
23 Aug 2015 12:49 PM
@Nitro

I'm not arguing for a classless society. That could never work. What I'm saying is that the notion that everyone can succeed is bogus.

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bbr0b is not online. bbr0b
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Total Posts: 2766
23 Aug 2015 12:50 PM
@nitro

why would anybody trade in a socialist society?
they'd have everything they need, there would be no need to trade except for trivial things such as children trading candy
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GhostOfThePastP2 is not online. GhostOfThePastP2
Joined: 20 Mar 2015
Total Posts: 3737
23 Aug 2015 12:52 PM
The ideal world for all, would be trade, and currency absent. If manufacturers, and consumers all had equal passage, but then. How many mansions would be built/on the books to be built? How many more products would enter a demand? Are the recourses used to create, and make these things TRULY significant enough, to equally supply 7.7 billion people with what they desire? Such an ideal world cannot be finite like this one. Currency, and even class serve a few purposes, though I do not agree that a person's worth should be defined by what they have. Purposes class, and wealth serve are: Order. Controlled production that prevents exhausting resources, and what can be a healthy level of hierarchy. The people we put into power, can either benefit us, or destroy us.
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bbr0b is not online. bbr0b
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Total Posts: 2766
23 Aug 2015 12:53 PM
"I'm not arguing for a classless society. That could never wor"

why not?
a post-scarcity economy where everyone lives a luxurious life is inevitable tbh
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phoniex is not online. phoniex
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Total Posts: 34985
23 Aug 2015 12:55 PM
@bbr

Many have tried and failed to create it. Virtually every single communist and socialist revolution intended to create one, and all of them regressed into either oppressive dictatorships, or eventually gave into capitalism.

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TaiWolf1234 is not online. TaiWolf1234
Joined: 16 May 2010
Total Posts: 23207
23 Aug 2015 12:55 PM
"a post-scarcity economy where everyone lives a luxurious life is inevitable tbh"

That's asking for a perfect world. We don't live in a perfect world.
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IcyTheHedgehog is not online. IcyTheHedgehog
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Total Posts: 44314
23 Aug 2015 12:55 PM
>OP fails to include that the poor in a capitalist society are much richer than those than in a society that is not capitalist.

the poor working class of america is actually more "well-off" than other nations
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phoniex is not online. phoniex
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Total Posts: 34985
23 Aug 2015 12:56 PM
@Tai

My point exactly. In a perfect world, yes, we could all live in a classless, luxurious society. The best way to create a good society in the real world is a balance of realism and idealism.

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