phoniex
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| Joined: 03 Feb 2008 |
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:30 PM |
Free market capitalists LOVE to toss out the phrase "Everyone can succeed, and those who don't are lazy, unskilled, or both." I shall now explain why this is bullcrap:
The thing is, capitalism NEEDS inequality in order to work. In order for the millionares to exist, the middle class and even the poor need to exist as well. There are always exceptions who manage to crawl out of the muck, but as a whole, capitalism needs people to be poor.
Why does capitalism need people to be poor? Well, so that the money of the rich stays valuable. Due to inflation, if everyone could succeed, everyone would. After all, who DOESN'T want to succeed? And if everyone, or even a majority of people succeed, the money will become worthless!
Secondly, capitalism needs people to work in the low-level and mid-level jobs so that the high-class can succeed. What I mean is, if say, a steel mangate wants to become successful, he also needs a ton of drones to run the steel mills, and since that work isn't valuable, they'll be paid less.
In other words, society would be exactly the same if everyone made 10 dollars a week, and if everyone made 10 million dollars a week.
Tl;Dr: Stop saying anyone can succeed in a capitalist society. If you are going to support free market capitalism, at least be honest.
~Cookies need love like everything does.~ |
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bbr0b
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redlego98
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| Joined: 11 Jul 2008 |
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:31 PM |
OP fails to include that the poor in a capitalist society are much richer than those than in a society that is not capitalist.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. |
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bbr0b
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:32 PM |
"OP fails to include that the poor in a capitalist society are much richer than those than in a society that is not capitalist."
you are implying a non-capitalist society has ever existed |
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phoniex
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:32 PM |
@Red
What?
~Cookies need love like everything does.~ |
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:33 PM |
@redlego
That has nothing to do with his argument. He was just saying the class mobility that is so often flaunted as a benefit of capitalism is pretty much nonexistent. |
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Nitro509
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:33 PM |
the question is how the rich avoid middle class and poor class to become rich, which is a major flaw in your thread i mean, if you do get a really good education (which requires money of course, i can see the rich keeping an eye on this with a lot of control, this is where i agree with you) and try to get a job, you will become rich depending on your education |
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redlego98
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:34 PM |
"you are implying a non-capitalist society has ever existed"
There are non capitalist societies, the Soviet Union, for example.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. |
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bbr0b
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:34 PM |
@nitro
good education does not ensure a job good education requires money else you'll spend the rest of your life trying to pay debts |
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bbr0b
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:36 PM |
"There are non capitalist societies, the Soviet Union, for example."
the soviet union was state-capitalist it was literally the same as a capitalist society except the party members were the ones who leeched off the working classes work instead of the bourgeois |
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:37 PM |
| i think we need to get ri d of money |
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phoniex
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:38 PM |
@bbr
Exactly. No matter how far back in history you go, there has never been a truly classless society. It's always been about the high class explotiing the low class for personal gain.
~Cookies need love like everything does.~ |
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:38 PM |
| None the less, OP makes a good point for the low class of our society. It's a shame how so much potential DOES get snuffed out due to the lack of care, and equality in America. I hate going for a walk around my town, that is Upper-Middle class, and seeing that mere streets away, you have so many handfuls of impoverished people, whom are homeless, or disabled. Many of which, I take the time to help, and some of the things you hear, if you just listen, are disturbing. I'd say 8 out of 10 wanted to succeed, and had the desire no doubt, but due to foreclosure, unemployment, discrimination, and even their support structures, friends, families, churches, and such have left them a shell of what they wanted to be. |
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redlego98
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:38 PM |
"Exactly. No matter how far back in history you go, there has never been a truly classless society. It's always been about the high class explotiing the low class for personal gain."
Touche.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. |
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Nitro509
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:41 PM |
@phoniex
it's not like high class or low class societies can exist anyways with the purchase of products needed for survival depends on a currency, which basically rates who you are
even with the absence of a currency, say trading, would still not cease a high/low class society |
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phoniex
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:43 PM |
@Nitro
What? I'm sorry, but I can't understand your argument. Can you word it a bit differently please?
~Cookies need love like everything does.~ |
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Nitro509
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:46 PM |
@phoniex
what i'm trying to say is, no society can ever exist with classes if currency exists
regardless of it's absence, say trading as an alternative, would still render a society with classes |
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phoniex
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:49 PM |
@Nitro
I'm not arguing for a classless society. That could never work. What I'm saying is that the notion that everyone can succeed is bogus.
~Cookies need love like everything does.~ |
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bbr0b
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:50 PM |
@nitro
why would anybody trade in a socialist society? they'd have everything they need, there would be no need to trade except for trivial things such as children trading candy |
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:52 PM |
| The ideal world for all, would be trade, and currency absent. If manufacturers, and consumers all had equal passage, but then. How many mansions would be built/on the books to be built? How many more products would enter a demand? Are the recourses used to create, and make these things TRULY significant enough, to equally supply 7.7 billion people with what they desire? Such an ideal world cannot be finite like this one. Currency, and even class serve a few purposes, though I do not agree that a person's worth should be defined by what they have. Purposes class, and wealth serve are: Order. Controlled production that prevents exhausting resources, and what can be a healthy level of hierarchy. The people we put into power, can either benefit us, or destroy us. |
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bbr0b
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:53 PM |
"I'm not arguing for a classless society. That could never wor"
why not? a post-scarcity economy where everyone lives a luxurious life is inevitable tbh |
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phoniex
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:55 PM |
@bbr
Many have tried and failed to create it. Virtually every single communist and socialist revolution intended to create one, and all of them regressed into either oppressive dictatorships, or eventually gave into capitalism.
~Cookies need love like everything does.~ |
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:55 PM |
"a post-scarcity economy where everyone lives a luxurious life is inevitable tbh"
That's asking for a perfect world. We don't live in a perfect world. |
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:55 PM |
>OP fails to include that the poor in a capitalist society are much richer than those than in a society that is not capitalist.
the poor working class of america is actually more "well-off" than other nations |
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phoniex
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| 23 Aug 2015 12:56 PM |
@Tai My point exactly. In a perfect world, yes, we could all live in a classless, luxurious society. The best way to create a good society in the real world is a balance of realism and idealism.
~Cookies need love like everything does.~ |
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