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| 13 Jun 2015 07:59 PM |
I don't appreciate seeing others tell newcomers to look at the ROBLOX Wiki to learn scripting. It is absolutely terrible. It covers basic information uncomprehensively and without proper explanation of why using something might be useful as compared to using something else.
A language is only as easy to learn as its resources are easy to understand. And programming theory is universal. So if you want to learn coding, I applaud you, but unless you want to become a practical scripter who understands little about what he does other than through trial and error, I highly recommend you go learn some other language first. |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:03 PM |
| I regret learning Lua before Java/C++/C/Cwhatever/whatever |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:07 PM |
| Glad to see someone who agrees! I was never able to learn Lua.... I'm a theory kind of guy, and like to understand concepts before doing. I know... Java, javascript, (html and css if they even count), and a little PHP though I probably forgot how to use it already. |
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Brickagon
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| Joined: 01 Jun 2015 |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:09 PM |
I tell someone to look at the wiki for reference. I offer scripting lessons. Although, nobody ever attempts to learn/forgets. |
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jode6543
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| Joined: 16 Jun 2009 |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:20 PM |
No, I really shouldn't have. Lua's paradigm-neutral approach is great for a first language, because it prevents you from picking up the bad habits that tend to be picked up by learning a strongly OOP language first.
The problem with the Wiki is that it's tutorials are disorganized and written by a host of different authors, all with different teaching styles. Shuffling through them to find the one that matches your learning style is annoying, but the resources are there. This tutorial, in particular, was my first: http://wiki.roblox.com/index.php?title=Absolute_beginner%27s_guide_to_scripting
Also, this may be a pedantic point, but how are you able to understand JavaScript but not Lua? JavaScript and Lua are really quite similar to each other. |
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hdtv13
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:23 PM |
People expect too much from us, some people it comes naturally. (well they find it easier to learn, like myself.)
I agree, people should learn other languages before Lua, or learn Lua 5.1 somewhere else then adapt to rbx.Lua
I have skin, potatoes have skin, therefore I'm a potato. |
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aerogod
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:25 PM |
Well, I started off with html and those languages, and then moved on to a bit of javascript and java, and THEN started on lua. But I feel as though I should have started on lua before I did all those other languages.
| aviator of gc&d | my alt is mechawafflealtlegit | "hell is paved with good intentions" | |
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Dyabolic
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:28 PM |
@jode6543
Well first off I can understand Lua now; I just don't have knowledge of all its functions. I had trouble learning it at first because of the wiki's disorganization, as you noted.
In context to other programming languages' similarity to each other, Lua is pretty different than Javascript. Just to note a few are its lack of braces and semicolons and basic operators such as +=.
Now about the Wiki... it is true it hosts an array of different teaching styles, but that isn't the main problem. The problem is I haven't spotted an effective one. I just read the functions page -- each type of function is poorly defined through untechnical terms, and gives no significance to each approach. For example, conventional function declarations are exemplified along with anonymous functions, but that's it. There is no explanation of why you would want to use one over the other. The writers do not have a basic grasp of why, or have little sense to incorporate it.
And I'm confused about your assertion that the wiki's "paradigm-neutral approach ... prevents you from picking up the bad habits". I'm sorry, isn't that what gives users bad habits in the first place? It encourages trial and error and practical programming rather than a real understanding of programming. |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:30 PM |
Lua is a better first language than anything else I can think of. Roblox probably has the largest collection of Lua tutorials on the internet, and not just on the wiki - there's tutorial threads, YouTube videos, Roblox Places, Roblox tutorial scripts, et cetera.
People just expect to learn in an hour. If they want to learn, they need to be dedicated and bent on learning it. Laziness doesn't get you anywhere. This is why people fail school - they think their learning depends entirely on other people. If people don't put effort in, they don't learn. The tutorials on the wiki are scatter, unorganized, et cetera, but that is why I tell people to use mostly the wiki, and use YouTube and reliable free models as support or glue for what they are learning. If people don't practice, they will forget. Unless they practice it, and work hard, they are going to think the tutorials are garbage.
Lua is the best first language I can imagine. Python is very comparable, but it is slightly more difficult, with far fewer resources to learn from. |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:31 PM |
| I disagree, I have a decent understanding of Lua and I taught myself without learning another language... |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:35 PM |
Lua is a really good first language agreed.
In order to learn Lua you need to have resources.
The resources on the wiki are trash and so are lua.org's. You need to be taught to use the things, not told what they do.
If anybody ever wants to learn, I am here. That is better than the whole youtube series tutorials because you can ask me what if questions and I can say go try it. |
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jode6543
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| Joined: 16 Jun 2009 |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:35 PM |
"Just to note a few are its lack of braces and semicolons and basic operators such as +=." Those are all very minor differences that amount to little more than syntactical quirks (on Lua's part, I'll admit).
But what, exactly, is wrong with programming practically? That's Lua's real benefit; it shows you how to *really* program rather than how to *theoretically* program. |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:40 PM |
@Jode and Jarod
The problem is that users learn through trial and error and do not truly grasp theory.
By practically programming you are prone to take the hard or inefficient way out. Practical programmers I know use lines of code that work without knowing what they actually mean. Or they may use unnecessarily long or redundant code.
It's kind of like why people have no idea how "I" or "me" is used, and use it half of the time correctly, but aren't sure when the use is off. I hear people say things like "She went to the store with __ and I" all the time. That's practical speaking. |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:41 PM |
| And Jode... Of course it is on Lua's part. That would make no sense if it weren't. Again, I speak of difference in context to resemblance of other languages to each other. Not of actual quantifiable measures. |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:44 PM |
"It's kind of like why people have no idea how "I" or "me" is used" This reminds me of when I was learning German. |
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jode6543
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:50 PM |
I think there is something critically wrong in your way of thinking. Using code without knowing what it means is to not understand it practically *or* theoretically. That's not learning, or even scripting, that's just copying and pasting.
You're marginalizing practicality in favor of the theoretical. That will get you through compsci courses, but it won't get you a job. You need to understand how to apply that theory to something practical. Not to mention, all theory is rooted in the discoveries of people experimenting and discovering what works best, then sharing that with their peers. The ideal of "what works best", however, is subjective. What works best in one situation may not work well in another; a paradigm that solves one problem may not easily solve a different problem.
That's where Lua shines. It allows you to use every paradigm but doesn't force you to use any of them. You can learn how to program in general independently from how to program in an object-oriented way, or a functional way, or any other way, and thus you are less likely to treat these theories as a panacea. |
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:55 PM |
I'm sorry, what gives Lua users more freedom than those of other languages? As if on other languages there is only one way to do things?
You mention different methods created by different people who UNDERSTAND, and that is great. They are able to come up with new methods because they understand the theoretical aspects of coding.
I don't think we're on the same page of 'understanding theory' here. By that, I mean getting concepts, and not just finding random pieces of information as you go. You will not understand anything entirely, you will be missing more efficient ways, and you will not be able to come up with, as you said, "what works best." |
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ShungTzu
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:58 PM |
"""I don't appreciate seeing others tell newcomers to look at the ROBLOX Wiki to learn scripting. It is absolutely terrible. It covers basic information uncomprehensively and without proper explanation of why using something might be useful as compared to using something else.
A language is only as easy to learn as its resources are easy to understand. """
I don't either, never have. It's not just here, though. It's very common in open source... umm,.. eveyerthing open source.
I've lost count of the number of times I've googled a question to find nothing other than a FORUM THREAD, where someone with the knowledge to answer had lost his temper, strawmaned the question (he haddn't understood it) told the questioners to learn to use google, and LOCKED THE THREAD. |
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cntkillme
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| 13 Jun 2015 08:59 PM |
| If you care about how Lua works in every sense and all the concepts, learn programming from the ground-up (how CPU, memory, etc. work and how it all links together in basic C and Asm code) |
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TimeTicks
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| 13 Jun 2015 09:00 PM |
Because idiots don't know how to implement the things given by the wiki.
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jode6543
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| Joined: 16 Jun 2009 |
| Total Posts: 5363 |
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| 13 Jun 2015 09:03 PM |
| You aren't addressing my core points, you're just picking out pedantic pieces of my arguments. I don't think anything I say will get across to you, so I'll stop trying. That being said, based on the suggestions you are giving others in the forums right now, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about, at least in regards to Roblox scripting. I'd advise you to stop misleading and confusing people when you don't understand what you are saying. You are free to continue hurting yourself, but please don't spread it to others. |
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| 13 Jun 2015 09:03 PM |
| Expecting idiots to learn from articles written by idiots.... Funny. If one cannot understand, the other cannot write. |
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| 13 Jun 2015 09:05 PM |
| Jode, I'm not sure if you've been paying attention, but I've addressed each one of your paragraphs. Maybe learn the point of paragraphs? If you have multiple main points within a single paragraph, I'm sorry I missed something, but telling me I didn't listen rather than address my points is simple avoidance. |
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