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Re: "Races" don't exist.

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JeSuisCharlie is not online. JeSuisCharlie
Joined: 07 Jan 2015
Total Posts: 770
25 Jan 2015 09:56 PM
They are poorly defined, incredibly arbitrary, and have no basis in reality. They're just a result of our tribalistic instincts to separate ourselves into different groups.

Simply try to do it, define race for me. You can't, you will always fail.

What makes people one race, and one the other?
Is it skin color? Blacks, whites, but what about Asians? They're typically considered their own race, but they're pretty pale, many just as pale as whites.

Is it continent of origin? That would explain African-Americans, Asian-Americans, but then we have just "white". That's not a continent. Would they be European-Americans? But then, white people also originated in Africa.

In fact, all races originated from Africa. So if it's continent of origin, then aren't we all Africans? What is the exact time period that this "origin" extends to?

This also doesn't explain how "hispanics" is a race. They're related to Spain, which is a country, not a continent.

See? Races are poorly defined and have no actual basis in reality.
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bub465 is not online. bub465
Joined: 04 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 12000
25 Jan 2015 09:56 PM
tl;dr version?


Silence is golden, but Duct Tape is silver.
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farway is not online. farway
Joined: 15 Jan 2012
Total Posts: 15418
25 Jan 2015 09:57 PM
THAT'S RACIST!
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hungrycheesemonster is not online. hungrycheesemonster
Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Total Posts: 1261
25 Jan 2015 09:57 PM
tl;dr
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Mantine55 is not online. Mantine55
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 8417
25 Jan 2015 09:59 PM
a race of people is a group of people with significant identifiable and distinguishable characteristics that sets them apart from other groups of people, these differences typically being caused by geographic isolation over long periods of time

FOR EXAMPLE WE HAVE THE MAGNIFICENT

australian aborigine
sub-saharan african
caucasian
indian
han chinese
native american

all the others i'm too lazy
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peacocksock is not online. peacocksock
Joined: 03 Jan 2015
Total Posts: 1678
25 Jan 2015 10:00 PM
td;lr: race is a social construct

(•ᴗ•)b
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ShredasaurusRex is not online. ShredasaurusRex
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Total Posts: 25546
25 Jan 2015 10:01 PM
We are but one race

The human race

The chamingus in the cosmic soup
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JeSuisCharlie is not online. JeSuisCharlie
Joined: 07 Jan 2015
Total Posts: 770
25 Jan 2015 10:04 PM
@Mantine55

"Distinguishable characters" is insanely arbitrary. How do you decide if a characteristic is "distinguishable"?

The definition of race you've given is pretty much "if we say it's a race, then it is". It's a pretty poor and arbitrary way of defining things.

@Shred

I agree.
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Mantine55 is not online. Mantine55
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 8417
25 Jan 2015 10:05 PM
"We are but one race

The human race"

NO WE'RE A SPECIES ARIGAOGAPKGAGERARGAERG
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Mantine55 is not online. Mantine55
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 8417
25 Jan 2015 10:07 PM
""Distinguishable characters" is insanely arbitrary. How do you decide if a characteristic is "distinguishable"?

The definition of race you've given is pretty much "if we say it's a race, then it is". It's a pretty poor and arbitrary way of defining things."

sub-saharan africans: black

caucasians: white

those of mongoloid descent: yellow


species can also be identified by average skull structures.


humans have been separated from each other for tens of thousands of years. it is ridiculous to say that these different groups are now the same.
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JeSuisCharlie is not online. JeSuisCharlie
Joined: 07 Jan 2015
Total Posts: 770
25 Jan 2015 10:37 PM
@Mantine555

First thing you do is define three sets of races.
You've completely proven my point. You didn't actually give me criteria to determine races, you just decided that those three are races.

That's arbitrary.

And then you say they can be "IDENTIFIED by average skull structures". I don't want to "identify" your different pre-supposed "races".

I want the criteria from which these races can be discovered independently.


Let me explain why what you're doing is absurd.

Let's say, I met an alien. I said that humans and monkeys are different species. He asks, well, what makes them different species?

An appropriate answer would be simply that two organisms are different species if they cannot interbreed. The alien would then agree, yes, they're different species.

An inappropriate answer would be to what you're doing, you would simply say "because humans and monkeys are different species, and you can identify them because one is more hairy than the other". You never answered the question to WHY they're different species.

What criteria are you using to DERIVE races. Not what can you use to identify pre-supposed races.
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SoundBarrierSpino is not online. SoundBarrierSpino
Joined: 29 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 11645
25 Jan 2015 10:40 PM
JeSuis...that's bs.
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Mantine55 is not online. Mantine55
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 8417
25 Jan 2015 10:47 PM
@JeSuisCharlie

The fact that they are different is not arbitary. It is a fact.

Races are derived by differences between them.

The comparison concerning the fact that humans and monkeys cannot breed does not really apply here, since we are talking about races, not species. Races can interbreed, but they have distinguishable characteristics.

I repeat, the differences are what makes a race.

Species are also not determined by whether or not they can interbreed when fertile. That may be part of it, since if they cannot they are not part of the same species, but a species is determined by how common certain characteristics in a group.

It may be arbitrary to draw the line between deciding if large differences make a new species or simply a different race, but it is certainly arbitrary to say these large differences are of no effect.
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JeSuisCharlie is not online. JeSuisCharlie
Joined: 07 Jan 2015
Total Posts: 770
25 Jan 2015 11:06 PM
>"The fact that they are different is not arbitary. It is a fact."

Not what I said at all. Fail #1.

I said that simply saying "different" as a defining characteristic is arbitrary, because this applies to anything. All species are different, all viruses are different, all planets are different.

We can't just say what separates these thing is "their differences".
We need solid, non-arbitrary definitions.

>"Races are derived by differences between them."

Which is insanely arbitrary, as I've pointed out time and time again. Fail #2.

>"The comparison concerning the fact that humans and monkeys cannot breed does not really apply here, since we are talking about races, not species. Races can interbreed, but they have distinguishable characteristics."

That was an analogy, not a direct comparison. Fail #3.

>"I repeat, the differences are what makes a race."

Differences make EVERYTHING. Every categorical system is based on differences. That's, again, arbitrary. Fail #4.

>"Species are also not determined by whether or not they can interbreed when fertile. That may be part of it, since if they cannot they are not part of the same species, but a species is determined by how common certain characteristics in a group."

Fail #5.

"A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature."
- Berkeley

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VADefiningSpecies.shtml

>"It may be arbitrary to draw the line between deciding if large differences make a new species or simply a different race, but it is certainly arbitrary to say these large differences are of no effect."

"Large differences" is arbitrary. Fail #6.
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Ubermen9 is not online. Ubermen9
Joined: 14 Oct 2011
Total Posts: 3886
25 Jan 2015 11:12 PM
Another AnonyAnonymous?

[audience gasp]
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lVlORIS is not online. lVlORIS
Joined: 06 May 2014
Total Posts: 7982
25 Jan 2015 11:15 PM
"I'm so smart because I don't use broadly-accepted terms, look at me, look at me."
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lVlORIS is not online. lVlORIS
Joined: 06 May 2014
Total Posts: 7982
25 Jan 2015 11:16 PM
"Another AnonyAnonymous?"

This is obviously AndroidWeasel on another one of her smartypants rants where she talks down to everyone.
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Ubermen9 is not online. Ubermen9
Joined: 14 Oct 2011
Total Posts: 3886
25 Jan 2015 11:17 PM
@Moris
Thank you for your information.

[audience gasp]
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Mantine55 is not online. Mantine55
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 8417
26 Jan 2015 07:48 PM
>"The comparison concerning the fact that humans and monkeys cannot breed does not really apply here, since we are talking about races, not species. Races can interbreed, but they have distinguishable characteristics."

That was an analogy, not a direct comparison. Fail #3.

>"I repeat, the differences are what makes a race."

"Differences make EVERYTHING. Every categorical system is based on differences. That's, again, arbitrary. Fail #4. ."

I address this on the bottom.

"Fail #5.

"A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature."
- Berkeley"

I have several problems with this definition.

First of all, by using it, grizzly bears and polar bears would suddenly be the same species.

Furthermore, since different groups of humans were separated from each other for tens of thousands of years, during that time period, by defintion, there would have been several different species of humans -- except now, due to the fact that we have the potential to interbreed, all humans would be the same species, even members of groups that were formerly defined as species that are purebred.

"Large differences" is arbitrary. Fail #6."

If your argument is simply to refuse accepting different skin colors and skull structures common to each genetic group as significant, then we are arguing about opinion.

And if your argument is that race does not exist due to the fact that there is no concrete way to derive it: the distinction between race, species and genus are especially fuzzy and always will be, especially since a factor of opinion is necessary in deducing them. Consider the polar bear and grizzly bear example.

Furthermore, by eliminating the use of differences and common characteristics to derive organic classifications such as race, you also destroy kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus and species.

These classifications are made for convenience. You're right in saying that none of these exist tangibly, but the only base definition that works and that is not arbitrary is that all life is different.

Ironically, in making races, we are not dividing, but grouping.


One more thing: when you went on a tirade about how I used the word "identify" and not "derive", you were arguing about semantics.

If you are able to identify something as distinct using certain criteria, you should reasonably be able to derive it from the same criteria.
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Awkrin is not online. Awkrin
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Total Posts: 19058
26 Jan 2015 07:50 PM
Different races implies that we cannot have fertile off springs.

IE a mule
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ssempre is not online. ssempre
Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Total Posts: 10668
26 Jan 2015 07:51 PM
I hate you and your points are wrong/weak but race actually is a social construct.

I'll make a new thread explaining why, maybe.
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spydig is not online. spydig
Joined: 13 Nov 2010
Total Posts: 10448
26 Jan 2015 07:51 PM
Races don't exist.

But ethnic groups do.

Winning since 1776.
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suchomimus101 is not online. suchomimus101
Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Total Posts: 584
26 Jan 2015 07:53 PM
I honestly think, if you let people, they would actulay change what type of human they are, H0mo chineseus or something. H0mo Americunus.
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lVlORIS is not online. lVlORIS
Joined: 06 May 2014
Total Posts: 7982
26 Jan 2015 07:53 PM
"I'll make a new thread explaining why, maybe."

We don't deserve that. Please, spare us the brain cells.
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coolisiahwebbe08 is not online. coolisiahwebbe08
Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Total Posts: 1592
26 Jan 2015 07:53 PM
@OP
Hispanic is a

race


are you dumb?.


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