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Re: All people are productive members of society

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JulianHallstrom is not online. JulianHallstrom
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Total Posts: 2765
07 Nov 2014 07:27 AM
You can do a job, and you're productive. You can go to school and you're productive. You can be on welfare and be productive. You can have mental illness, and be productive. I'll elaborate later.
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JulianHallstrom is not online. JulianHallstrom
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Total Posts: 2765
07 Nov 2014 07:39 AM
Okay, I was wrong, the rich are unproductive. The rich can make 100 times a workers wage, but do they buy 100x more stuff? No. If they paid their people more the people could buy stuff and boost the economy, but no. Most rich don't even work much.
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Kaidou is not online. Kaidou
Joined: 16 Jul 2011
Total Posts: 5304
07 Nov 2014 07:45 AM
>You can be on welfare and be productive.
A lot of people (at least in the US) who are on welfare do nothing productive.
Productive: producing or able to produce large amounts of goods, crops, or other commodities

>The rich can make 100 times a workers wage, but do they buy 100x more stuff? No.
Buying goods or services doesn't really make a person more productive.
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2013Yay is not online. 2013Yay
Joined: 31 Dec 2012
Total Posts: 5299
07 Nov 2014 11:44 AM
They're looking for jobs, it's productive. You have to write alot of applications then.
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JulianHallstrom is not online. JulianHallstrom
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Total Posts: 2765
08 Nov 2014 06:04 AM
The rich can make 100 times a workers wage, but do they buy 100x more stuff? No.
Buying goods or services doesn't really make a person more productive

Someone on welfare has been productive probably. Also, those on welfare can be working at the same time they are on welfare. What if the person can't work because they're raising the next generation of people? Now, for productivity. If you can have others be productive, you are productive. (Job creators.) The rich will only hire more people when they're work power has been exhausted and if everyone's poor, they can't do that.
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Pakesboy is not online. Pakesboy
Joined: 09 Nov 2011
Total Posts: 3044
08 Nov 2014 07:38 AM
Its funny how most of the conservatives on here claim/act like people on unproductive when they probably aren't very productive or helpful themselves.

"Why is it . . . that in this world there are men [and women] whose hearts have been so numbed, whose sentiments of honor and delicacy have been so deadened, that one sees them pleased and amused by what degrades and soils them?" - Marquis de Sade
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0Z0NE is not online. 0Z0NE
Joined: 25 May 2010
Total Posts: 7951
08 Nov 2014 08:52 AM
Productive means they are producing something of some significance.

People on welfare are a drain on the economy, and the government.

The rich pay the highest taxes, and own the companies which have the largest portions of the GDP.
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1GR33NTHUNDAH is not online. 1GR33NTHUNDAH
Joined: 19 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 7772
08 Nov 2014 11:35 AM
"You can be on welfare and be productive."
"You can have mental illness, and be productive."
"OK, I was wrong, the rich cannot be productive"

this thread is a mess

you do not know true fear until you've been kamikaze dive bombed by geese
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Takistan is not online. Takistan
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1319
08 Nov 2014 01:57 PM
Your not useful if you went to school or have a job.







yeeeeeee
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Zech9005 is not online. Zech9005
Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Total Posts: 3417
08 Nov 2014 04:48 PM
Darn those unproductive rich people just sitting at home with their CEO jobs. Darn them for buying expensive cars that boosts the economy for car dealers darn those rich people for buying houses and giving Realtors a job, darn those rich people for owning business like Walmart, Apple, Microsoft, and other dirty establishments. Darn those rich people for employing grounds keepers to keep their yard clean. Darn those rich people for going on Vacations all around the U.S and spending their money in different cities. Darn those rich... ah... screw it you get the idea.

Nobody is saying that people on welfare specifically are bums.

People who have no job and don't try to get a job are bums. There's a difference.


But to call the the "rich" bum is stupid. Unless you get a huge inheritance or win the lottery. They worked to get to where they are now.
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JulianHallstrom is not online. JulianHallstrom
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Total Posts: 2765
08 Nov 2014 05:18 PM
"expensive cars that boosts the economy for car dealers darn those rich people for buying houses and giving Realtors a job, darn those rich people for owning business like Walmart, Apple, Microsoft, and other dirty establishments. Darn those rich people for employing grounds keepers to keep their yard clean. Darn those rich people for going on Vacations all around the U.S and spending their money in different cities. Darn those rich... ah... screw it you get the idea."
What's the point of having an expensive car in the first place. Very few people work for luxury car dealerships, and they aren't good for the environment. A man who owns a business does very little. Owning is a quaternary industry, very useless, but you get a pay check in the mail. Owners are like kings! Everyone buys real estate, it's not just the rich. The rich can buy a lot of things, but they cannot buy as much as 100 people. They can buy things worth 100 people, but they can't buy the amount of 100 people.
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mageofpower is not online. mageofpower
Top 100 Poster
Joined: 01 Feb 2009
Total Posts: 43654
08 Nov 2014 05:20 PM
People on welfare = Productive

Rich people = Not productive.

Okay mate. Whatever you say.
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JulianHallstrom is not online. JulianHallstrom
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Total Posts: 2765
08 Nov 2014 05:23 PM
Okay, I may have been overgeneralizing a tad, but the main idea is that the rich are not as productive as they are made out to be, and the people on welfare are more productive than they are made out to be. Really the name was just trying to get a response...
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mageofpower is not online. mageofpower
Top 100 Poster
Joined: 01 Feb 2009
Total Posts: 43654
08 Nov 2014 05:32 PM
If you're going to make claims like that it's usually customary to provide some evidence to support them.
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Kvave is not online. Kvave
Joined: 12 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 883
08 Nov 2014 06:26 PM
>Darn those unproductive rich people just sitting at home with their CEO jobs. Darn them for buying expensive cars that boosts the economy for car dealers darn those rich people for buying houses and giving Realtors a job, darn those rich people for owning business like Walmart, Apple, Microsoft, and other dirty establishments. Darn those rich people for employing grounds keepers to keep their yard clean. Darn those rich people for going on Vacations all around the U.S and spending their money in different cities. Darn those rich... ah... screw it you get the idea.

Praising the rich for creating jobs, although wrong, is understandable as it a popular piece of capitalist propaganda. We're told that the rich work hard for their money (even though this is, often, shown not to be true) by building businesses that employ the average person and stimulate the economy. That makes sense but it's just not true. The rich have no intention of creating jobs or helping their country. Companies such as Walmart and McDonald's have one goal: to maximize profits. At all costs. This means making sure they employ as few people as possible, at the lowest possible wage. This is exploitation and it's seen not just in minimum wage jobs but at jobs of all levels and all pays. If you work for a person, your purpose is to make them money and you are ALWAYS paid less than what you produce. For example, a sweatshop worker who is given a dollar a day is certainly going to produce more than a dollar a day worth of things. This is called surplus value and I encourage you to look more into it.

On the other hand, your belief that the purchase of expensive luxury items by the rich somehow helps the average Joe is not only unfounded, but extremely ignorant and harmful.


> But to call the the "rich" bum is stupid. Unless you get a huge inheritance or win the lottery. They worked to get to where they are now.

I'd like to see one rich person who wasn't born into it and who didn't obtain it through mass exploitation. I'm sure there's a couple.
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Mantine55 is not online. Mantine55
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 8417
08 Nov 2014 06:27 PM
"I'd like to see one rich person who wasn't born into it and who didn't obtain it through mass exploitation. I'm sure there's a couple."

J.K. Rowling

wtf

There are tons of rags-to-riches stories out there.
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Kvave is not online. Kvave
Joined: 12 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 883
08 Nov 2014 06:28 PM
Sure, I can't disagree with that.
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Kvave is not online. Kvave
Joined: 12 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 883
08 Nov 2014 06:29 PM
It's not true of the vast majority of actually wealthy people.
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Celestus is not online. Celestus
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 14873
08 Nov 2014 07:14 PM
Most rich people aren't business owners despite popular misconception. Most are those with professional jobs like doctors, lawyers and jobs involving management but not necessarily CEOs. These people are productive within society because they provide a service or product that not many can provide or produce. If these people weren't productive and skilled, they wouldn't be earning what they do because the business would simply hire someone else to do the job at a lower cost, but the fact they are getting paid what they do is due to a shortage in the supply of labour for this particular job. Therefore to do this job you require skills and training, which in term are productivity. The manual workers, those at the bottom end producing the goods are not educated, anyone can do what they do, therefore there will always be an abundance of people willing to do these jobs at a low wage. Paying more for these people would actually make it unprofitable for a firm to produce the same quantity it was, they will therefore cut the quantity they produce and less people will be employed. So the argument is really, pay more for a manual worker at the expense of making more manual workers unemployed.

As for rich shareholders, yes it may be argued they are unproductive. They aren't actually producing anything after all. Due to the fact they have a higher amount of money, they have a much lower marginal propensity to consume. So the argument of rich people spending money, which in turn provides employment etc. doesn't really work, the fact is rich people will hold onto more of their money than the amount of money saved if it was to be distributed amongst poor people. Because poor people have a higher propensity to consume. The trickle down effect is real, but the actual extent to which wealth trickles down is not the same as the amount of wealth that trickles down through tax/welfare redistribution.
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Scyblocks is not online. Scyblocks
Joined: 24 Mar 2012
Total Posts: 26732
08 Nov 2014 07:25 PM
Agreed.

With the exception of murderers, criminals, thieves, anarchists, and 'others'.
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Zech9005 is not online. Zech9005
Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Total Posts: 3417
08 Nov 2014 07:35 PM
"Praising the rich for creating jobs, although wrong"

Damn them! I don't want a job! waaaah waaaaahh!

"it a popular piece of capitalist propaganda"

This isn't 1940s Germany kid. It's not propaganda if you can google it and see that it's true.

"We're told that the rich work hard for their money (even though this is, often, shown not to be true) by building businesses that employ the average person and stimulate the economy."

Anyone at one point or another that owns a HUGE business started small. Microsoft started in a garage, Jungle Jims, started as a fruit stand, Starbucks, started as one small coffee shop. Also lets look at the "Average" Employee in the companies you stated past this sentence. Walmart and Mcdonalds, both of which require no skill, no education, and pretty much anyone can work there. I mean, look at walmart door greeters. The guy that greets people at my local walmart has 1 arm. ONE ARM. Anyone can do these jobs! Which means the wage is gonna be crap because you're replaceable!

As for the rest of it, with you crying exploitation and all. Is simply not true, nearly every pays based on the work. You think those oil boys in North Dakota right now work for minimum wage? No, in most cases they make over 30 an hour. Because the work is HARD.
Granted, it requires no education or skill. Its the amount of work that makes it pay so much. Now back to a teenage kid who flips burgers at a fast food chain, I see no reason that he should be paid more than minimum wage. Because ANYONE can do that job, and it's easy.

As for the "as few people as possible" comment, well not duh, you're wasting money if you're employing a guy that isn't required. That's common sense.

As for the "always paid less than you produce" I'd like to see you run any business where it costs MORE TO RUN THE DAMN THING than it profits. You're shooting yourself in the foot with this one. Idiot.

And lastly, sweatshops aren't a thing in the U.S, how about you blame the country instead of the system, idiot.

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Kvave is not online. Kvave
Joined: 12 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 883
08 Nov 2014 07:57 PM

> This isn't 1940s Germany kid. It's not propaganda if you can google it and see that it's true.

Propaganda is even more important to our modern democracy than it ever was in 1940.

>Anyone at one point or another that owns a HUGE business started small. Microsoft started in a garage, Jungle Jims, started as a fruit stand, Starbucks, started as one small coffee shop. Also lets look at the "Average" Employee in the companies you stated past this sentence. Walmart and Mcdonalds, both of which require no skill, no education, and pretty much anyone can work there. I mean, look at walmart door greeters. The guy that greets people at my local walmart has 1 arm. ONE ARM. Anyone can do these jobs! Which means the wage is gonna be crap because you're replaceable!

It doesn't matter where you start, but rather where you end and the means by which you get there. And I don't see your point with how Walmart's employees are generally inexperienced or incapable. Do they not deserve decent treatment?

>As for the rest of it, with you crying exploitation and all. Is simply not true, nearly every pays based on the work. You think those oil boys in North Dakota right now work for minimum wage? No, in most cases they make over 30 an hour. Because the work is HARD.
Granted, it requires no education or skill. Its the amount of work that makes it pay so much. Now back to a teenage kid who flips burgers at a fast food chain, I see no reason that he should be paid more than minimum wage. Because ANYONE can do that job, and it's easy.

Oil boys in North Dakota still don't get paid to the full extent of their labour. That's what surplus labour is. I simply think people should be paid what they deserve to be paid, which is how much value they produce.

>As for the "as few people as possible" comment, well not duh, you're wasting money if you're employing a guy that isn't required. That's common sense.

So... they're not benevolent job creators, then.

>As for the "always paid less than you produce" I'd like to see you run any business where it costs MORE TO RUN THE DAMN THING than it profits. You're shooting yourself in the foot with this one. Idiot.

Worker cooperatives are non-profit.


>And lastly, sweatshops aren't a thing in the U.S, how about you blame the country instead of the system, idiot.

They're a product of capitalism, so...
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Zech9005 is not online. Zech9005
Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Total Posts: 3417
08 Nov 2014 08:01 PM
Please, for the love of god take economics in highschool.

You're an idiot.
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Kvave is not online. Kvave
Joined: 12 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 883
08 Nov 2014 08:03 PM
Yeah, it's plainly obvious your knowledge on this extents to what you were lied about in your highschool capitalism class.
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Zech9005 is not online. Zech9005
Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Total Posts: 3417
08 Nov 2014 08:08 PM
"lied about in your highschool capitalism class."

Got a tin foil hat to go with that down syndrome?
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