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"Criminals will always get guns."

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PotatoWeasel is not online. PotatoWeasel
Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Total Posts: 791
03 Nov 2014 06:40 PM
>"Kentucky, one of the most pro-gun states in the USA, has a lower crime rate than Hawaii, along with anti-gun states such as New York and California. Kentucky also has a 47.7% gun ownership rate."

Who cares? You're using a little logical fallacy called Texas sharpshooter.
This is the fallacy where you pick the statistics relating to your claim and ignore all the others.

I don't care if out of all the states listed you can find an outlier. I care about all the data together, and if you plot each point, there's a pretty clear trendline.

Here's a study published in the American Journal of Medicine assessing many countries, gun homicides, and gun ownership.

http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(13)00444-0/abstract

"Among the 27 developed countries, there was a significant positive correlation between guns per capita per country and the rate of firearm-related deaths (r = 0.80; P <.0001)...However, there was no significant correlation (P = .10) between guns per capita per country and crime rate (r = .33)"

Essentially, what the study found was:
- More guns = more firearm-related deaths
- More guns ≠ less crime
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ScreenCapture is not online. ScreenCapture
Joined: 07 May 2013
Total Posts: 226
03 Nov 2014 06:42 PM
"You gun nuts really love to just make things up, don't you?
Even if this "fact" you pulled out of your derriere was correct, the time it takes to pull out a taser and fire it and the time it takes to pull out a gun and fire it is exactly the same. Both the taser and the gun fire at a speed faster than reaction speed."

I love how we weren't even discussing tasers at this point yet you pulled one "out of your derriere". As I said before, tasers are not always effective.

"Again, pretty sure you pulled this out of your behind.
It is impossible to not be incapacitated by the shock of a taser. The electricity causes your muscles to tighten up and you fall to the ground in a prostrate form."

On most people, not someone who is fit and determined, with someone like that it takes two or more shots. I wish I had it on video to show you, but it was at the county fair.

"If you're close, you shouldn't miss. If you're far enough away that you miss, you shouldn't be firing in the first place, you should be running, engaging in an unnecessary gunfight is imbecilic."

30 feet away is well within the range of even a bad shooter. I can shoot a target 40 yards away with a good pistol.

"Besides, if you're in a gunfight and you miss, you're dead anyways. He'll shoot you before you can line up another shot. If he doesn't have a gun, it's a close confrontation you can't flee, and you somehow miss and don't have time to reload the cartridge, you can use tasers as melee weapons as well."

Since when I'm old enough I'll be carrying a semi automatic 9mm, I'll be able to shoot 17 times in a few seconds before having to reload, so no. Plus, if it comes to hand to hand, guns make good clubs.

"The theory of mutual assured destruction does not actually work in the real world.
That's like saying we should give every country a nuke so that we'd be too afraid to give nuke anyone, and so we'd never have to worry about nukes."

Forget mutually assured, he's going to be dead, and the armed civilian will be alive 99.9% of the time.

"But we know it doesn't work like that. One crazy country will decide to nuke, someone would nuke them back, and some tie to that crazy country will cause them to nuke the person who nuked their ally, and so on and so forth."

But if the crazy countries were nuked before they pushed the big red button, the non-crazy countries would be alive.

"Tasers can shoot 15-30 feet. If you're over 30 feet away from your target, there's no reason you should be engaging in fight in the first place. You're pretty much already fled, just leave and get the police."

Already answered this, but why not say it again.

Even a bad shooter can shoot a man sized target 30 feet away. I can shoot a good pistol and be on a man sized target 40 YARDS away.
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PotatoWeasel is not online. PotatoWeasel
Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Total Posts: 791
03 Nov 2014 06:42 PM
>"If a lecture hall, bank, etc. was full, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to get out safely. It would be a matter of how much people can be saved at that point. Shooting at the aggressor would be far more effective that trying to get everyone out and wishing for the best."

Wait... you were talking about a CROWDED lecture hall?
Wow, I was taking you seriously for a little bit, but actually thinking it's fine to shoot while there's a bunch of people around... you're just insane!

>"Also, what about warning shots? Wouldn't the shot of a gun in the ground in front of you be far more intimidating than a taser?"

I thought we were talking about gun-gun interactions. If you shoot at the ground in front of someone who has a gun, they'll just actually shoot you and you die.

If you are not talking about gun-gun interaction, then tasers are perfectly fine.
You don't need to fire a warning shot at all. If they don't listen to the warning shot with a gun, you might have to shoot them which could kill them. If they don't listen to verbal warnings with a taser, just pull the trigger. They're not going to die but they're definitely going to be incapacitated.
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PotatoWeasel is not online. PotatoWeasel
Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Total Posts: 791
03 Nov 2014 06:53 PM
>"I love how we weren't even discussing tasers at this point yet you pulled one "out of your derriere". As I said before, tasers are not always effective."

I first brought up tasers at 2:02 PM, and I posted the sentence you're replying to at 4:07 PM. The times are there for anyone to confirm.

That's 2 hours and 5 minutes since it's been brought up.
If you're not going to be honest, please, don't reply to me anymore.
Because I don't care what you'd have to say.

>"On most people, not someone who is fit and determined, with someone like that it takes two or more shots. I wish I had it on video to show you, but it was at the county fair."

Incorrect. It is physically impossible. Tasers affect everyone. It's impossible not to be affected, no matter how fit you are, it doesn't matter, because how tasers work has absolutely nothing to do with your health or fitness.

Your body sends messages to your muscles using electricity. The electricity from the taser disrupts these communications and causes all your muscles to tighten.

There's nothing you can do about this.

>"Since when I'm old enough I'll be carrying a semi automatic 9mm, I'll be able to shoot 17 times in a few seconds before having to reload, so no. Plus, if it comes to hand to hand, guns make good clubs."

... you don't see a problem with having weapons that could kill as much as 30 people a second allowed by civilians?

>"Forget mutually assured, he's going to be dead, and the armed civilian will be alive 99.9% of the time."

As I said, doesn't work in real life. All studies confirm this. Countries with more guns have higher firearm-related deaths, and no detectable change in crime.

>"But if the crazy countries were nuked before they pushed the big red button, the non-crazy countries would be alive."

So you're telling me, if you see some black kid on the street in a hoody, you're going to kill him JUST IN CASE he kills you?

You can't predict whether someone is going to pull a gun to a degree great enough to justify shooting them. You're a lunatic. You're insane. I hope I never meet you in real life.

>"Even a bad shooter can shoot a man sized target 30 feet away. I can shoot a good pistol and be on a man sized target 40 YARDS away."

You're the kind of person I'd be afraid of. If I was 40 yards away from you, I'd take cover, and flee. You pretty much have a machine gun, what am I supposed to do? If I just took a machine gun and started shooting in your general direction, I'd probably hit you pretty quickly as well.

You aren't really at any advantage.
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IridiumFlare is not online. IridiumFlare
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Total Posts: 18587
03 Nov 2014 07:01 PM
Worth noting that Alaska only has a high gun homicide rate because of all the suicides that are included in the statistics.
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IridiumFlare is not online. IridiumFlare
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Total Posts: 18587
03 Nov 2014 07:05 PM
Gee I sure wonder how this guys kept going after being tased twice.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=mwyfYLg0HzE
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ScreenCapture is not online. ScreenCapture
Joined: 07 May 2013
Total Posts: 226
03 Nov 2014 07:27 PM
"I first brought up tasers at 2:02 PM, and I posted the sentence you're replying to at 4:07 PM. The times are there for anyone to confirm.

That's 2 hours and 5 minutes since it's been brought up.
If you're not going to be honest, please, don't reply to me anymore.
Because I don't care what you'd have to say."

The sentence you replied to had nothing to do with tasers, yet when you did reply, it was "TASER TASER TASER"

"Incorrect. It is physically impossible. Tasers affect everyone. It's impossible not to be affected, no matter how fit you are, it doesn't matter, because how tasers work has absolutely nothing to do with your health or fitness."

I would lay my hand on the Bible and swear that it happened. You know I'm a Christian and you know what that means to me.

But if you still insist..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwyfYLg0HzE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hApYJ63umGM (Imagine if this guy had a gun and you just had a taser)

Sure, they were slightly effected, but that really shows how well your "mighty tasers" work.


"Your body sends messages to your muscles using electricity. The electricity from the taser disrupts these communications and causes all your muscles to tighten.

There's nothing you can do about this."

If you're powerful enough, it doesn't stop you.

"... you don't see a problem with having weapons that could kill as much as 30 people a second allowed by civilians?"

It can't kill 30 people a second, and no, not as long as I or someone around me has one that can do the same.

"As I said, doesn't work in real life. All studies confirm this. Countries with more guns have higher firearm-related deaths, and no detectable change in crime."

Please check where you posted about something called "Texas Sharpshooter"

"So you're telling me, if you see some black kid on the street in a hoody, you're going to kill him JUST IN CASE he kills you?"

Nope. But if he pulls out a gun and starts talking about how he's "gon bust some crackas," you bet I'd shoot him. I'd have to be stupid to risk my life by running, when I can risk my life and try to save others.

"You can't predict whether someone is going to pull a gun to a degree great enough to justify shooting them. You're a lunatic. You're insane. I hope I never meet you in real life."

If someone has a gun pointed at your head, you're going to lay down and let them shoot you on the claim that they "might not" shoot you? While you're doing that I'll be neutralizing the threat, saving your behind.

"You're the kind of person I'd be afraid of. If I was 40 yards away from you, I'd take cover, and flee. You pretty much have a machine gun, what am I supposed to do? If I just took a machine gun and started shooting in your general direction, I'd probably hit you pretty quickly as well."

Before I even respond to this stupidity, don't compare a semi-automatic pistol with a machine gun, don't even compare an AR-15 with a machine gun, an AR may look like one, but it's no different than a semi-automatic .22 rifle, you have to squeeze the trigger each time you want to shoot. Now, back to the argument.

But you don't have a gun, they're evil, you have a taser. The shooter is 40 yards away with a Ruger 9mm pistol, you have no immediately available cover, he shoots you. Too bad you couldn't defend yourself.

I didn't learn to shoot to kill people, I learned to shoot so I could eat venison and, if need be, defend myself.

"You aren't really at any advantage."

If the shooter has a pistol, you have a taser, and you're 40 yards away from each other, the shooter sure as hell has an advantage.
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lnplodedalt is not online. lnplodedalt
Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Total Posts: 12637
03 Nov 2014 07:28 PM
It's not just a few outliers, though. Right now, I'm trying to create a graph that shows the relationship of gun ownership to crime rate using info from all 50 states. I'll show it later.

"- More guns ≠ less crime"
The UK is a prime example of the opposite of this. When they had more guns, they had a low crime rate. When they got rid of guns, the crime rate quickly spiked.
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lnplodedalt is not online. lnplodedalt
Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Total Posts: 12637
03 Nov 2014 07:29 PM
"Wow, I was taking you seriously for a little bit, but actually thinking it's fine to shoot while there's a bunch of people around... you're just insane!"
If the armed person is ALREADY shooting, it's not insane at all.
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ScreenCapture is not online. ScreenCapture
Joined: 07 May 2013
Total Posts: 226
03 Nov 2014 07:29 PM
Kitty, I promise I didn't copy the video from your post, it's one I found, just happened to be the same. lel.
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DesiredShark is not online. DesiredShark
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 5123
03 Nov 2014 07:57 PM
Anyone can get a gun, but no CCW permit.

You can walk into a Gander Mountain, buy ammo, buy a gun, and just walk out the door.

As I always say: "With rights, comes responsibilities".

I nearly cry every time when I hear of someone being shot, there has been a case where a man claimed his gun was unloaded, aimed at his, head, and pulled the trigger. He died.

No weapon is effective to halt crime, but every weapon, lethal or not lethal, will always reduce crime.
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PotatoWeasel is not online. PotatoWeasel
Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Total Posts: 791
03 Nov 2014 08:13 PM
>"It's not just a few outliers, though. Right now, I'm trying to create a graph that shows the relationship of gun ownership to crime rate using info from all 50 states. I'll show it later."

Wow, how childish. You are pathetically dishonest.
You even quoted what I said below and still misrepresented it.

I did NOT say gun ownership causes crime.
I specifically said:
"- More guns = more firearm-related deaths
- More guns ≠ less crime"

I said the OPPOSITE of that.


>"- More guns ≠ less crime
The UK is a prime example of the opposite of this. When they had more guns, they had a low crime rate. When they got rid of guns, the crime rate quickly spiked."

I'd need a source for this, but even if it's true, it'd simply be an outlier.
As the study I cited in The American Journal of Medicine stated, there is no significant correlation between gun ownership and crime.
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IridiumFlare is not online. IridiumFlare
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Total Posts: 18587
03 Nov 2014 08:18 PM
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
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ScreenCapture is not online. ScreenCapture
Joined: 07 May 2013
Total Posts: 226
03 Nov 2014 08:19 PM
I love how when my argument beats his he just ignores it.

I probably have more knowledge of weapons in general than anyone other than Kitty, yet Potato just disregards anything either of us say.
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DesiredShark is not online. DesiredShark
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 5123
03 Nov 2014 08:28 PM
Having a gun is not the problem, the thoughts of the person who owns the gun IS the problem.

There is a reason behind murders, people may do it for money, maybe for attention, maybe even for revenge.

Stuff happens, the weapons just enable us to express ourselves louder than words.
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SAPCenter is not online. SAPCenter
Joined: 22 Jul 2013
Total Posts: 7889
03 Nov 2014 08:33 PM
legalize murder then no one will be a criminal /s
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lnplodedalt is not online. lnplodedalt
Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Total Posts: 12637
03 Nov 2014 08:39 PM
/aDCA1dD
The chart represents the relationship of gun ownership to crime rate.
I'll give the sources that I used to make the chart out via PM.
Clearly, there turns out to be no significant correlation.
However, this shows more guns can SOMETIMES create less crime, and sometimes it creates more crime. It also shows that not having guns can SOMETIMES create more crime, and sometimes the opposite.
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IridiumFlare is not online. IridiumFlare
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Total Posts: 18587
03 Nov 2014 08:45 PM
Inploded you forgot the trend line.
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lnplodedalt is not online. lnplodedalt
Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Total Posts: 12637
03 Nov 2014 08:55 PM
no idea how to add one on excel
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lnplodedalt is not online. lnplodedalt
Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Total Posts: 12637
03 Nov 2014 08:57 PM
Forgot to mention that each point represents a state.
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IridiumFlare is not online. IridiumFlare
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Total Posts: 18587
03 Nov 2014 09:06 PM
I'll make one with a trend line in the morning. There's a ribbon fir it on the task bar if I remember correctly.
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IridiumFlare is not online. IridiumFlare
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Total Posts: 18587
03 Nov 2014 09:07 PM
Actually just do this.

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/add-change-or-remove-a-trendline-in-a-chart-HP010007461.aspx
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lnplodedalt is not online. lnplodedalt
Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Total Posts: 12637
03 Nov 2014 09:15 PM
/kEMorFc
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ScreenCapture is not online. ScreenCapture
Joined: 07 May 2013
Total Posts: 226
03 Nov 2014 09:28 PM
"You can walk into a Gander Mountain, buy ammo, buy a gun, and just walk out the door."

Technically that's incorrect, you still have to do some paperwork and a background check.
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DesiredShark is not online. DesiredShark
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 5123
04 Nov 2014 03:41 PM
"Technically that's incorrect, you still have to do some paperwork and A BACKGROUND CHECK."

Naww, you don't say?
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