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| 22 Apr 2014 09:04 PM |
One of the arguments in favor of this system, is that it is 'optional', and therefore participation is voluntary.
It is being used in the idea that while it is terraforming the group system, participation is up to the group.
While it is 'voluntary', it is mandatory in a practical sense, and the reason for it is mainly the prisoner's dilemna.
I will skip a lengthy explanation of the dilemna, and say that the most advantageous option is to break any agreement and testify against his compatriot.
Essentially, yes, this update is optional. However, you are forgetting the fact that an official system adds weight, and the fact that ROBLOX will no doubt cover the system itself within the blog will add free advertising.
Ultimately, it would be foolish for any clan to stay out of the system, for they are losing the opportunity to achieve free advertising and make a better name for themselves (regardless of what you think of the method).
The argument that C&G will stay unified in its defiance is wholly untrue. No coalition of protesters ever stay united, if they have something to gain by switching to the other side. Ergo, clans will eventually trickle over to the new system, even if they were diametrically opposed to it in the beginning.
Therefore, the initiative should be taken in arguing against the system now, rather than letting it become the status quo, later. While our method of warring is not the best (I will be the first to admit this), it is (in my opinion) better than the one set forth by ROBLOX.
If you have any comments, questions, or carefully-worded rebuttals, I would love to read them. |
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fred man
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| Joined: 06 Sep 2006 |
| Total Posts: 8403 |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:07 PM |
i like how i responded to ur other thread and nothing happened
you people love attn |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:08 PM |
| I didn't notice it, actually. I'll go back and take a look. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:08 PM |
Groups don't have the points or go on the leaderboards themselves. Clans do. Clans are basically ROBLOX's form of divisions, they're a sub-group of a bigger group. This update seems more intended to support group leagues/competitive gaming, in reality it doesn't really even affect traditional clans. [2]
Reposting this on a few threads so people can get the memo. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:11 PM |
"group leagues/competitive gaming"
That is not the way that the ROBLOX mods represented the update. When the came here, they did not state that this was an update for only gaming-devoted clans. They said it was an update for clans in general.
Even then, the statement still holds true, for if a clan can gain free advertising by using the points system, they would be foolish not to. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:15 PM |
"That is not the way that the ROBLOX mods represented the update. When the came here, they did not state that this was an update for only gaming-devoted clans. They said it was an update for clans in general.
Even then, the statement still holds true, for if a clan can gain free advertising by using the points system, they would be foolish not to."
Firstly, gordon probably only replied to some of the threads in attempts to clear *some* things up, if you look at what is said on the blog then you can clearly see that what I am saying is correct.
Secondly, I highly doubt this would be a huge thing for publicity. It'd be virtually the same as how groups are sorted by how many members they have. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:17 PM |
"you can clearly see that what I am saying is correct"
Gee, then we did not read it the same way.
Can you pull the excerpt that says that you are correct, rather than just saying that you are?
"I highly doubt this would be a huge thing for publicity"
Are you insinuating that no one would look at a section on the top toolbar, or that no one ever reads the blog? (It goes without saying that ROBLOX will feature high-scoring clans on the blog.) |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:23 PM |
"Gee, then we did not read it the same way.
Can you pull the excerpt that says that you are correct, rather than just saying that you are?"
Sure, since you won't read it for yourself, here you are: "Player Points are also core to “Clans.” >>A Clan is an invite-only part of a group.<< While a group can have unlimited members, only 100 of its members can belong to its Clan — and each member contributes to the total clan score with every Point they earn. That is, when you earn a Point, >>your Clan<< earns one too."
and
"What’s the spirit of Player Points? First, it’s competition"
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"Are you insinuating that no one would look at a section on the top toolbar, or that no one ever reads the blog? (It goes without saying that ROBLOX will feature high-scoring clans on the blog.)"
Of course people do, but you don't see clans gaining instant superclan-status by being on the 5th page of groups or blog-featured groups gaining instant mind-blowing popularity. You'd still have the most-members sorting and they'd most likely just add an additional sorting option. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:26 PM |
How does that prove your point? That just states that any group that likes competition can join in, and clans by nature, love competition.
You haven't proved anything, and merely providing a blockquote does not suffice.
As to your second point, arguably so, but it still remains to be seen. We don't exactly know what the result will be of the system, and groups that are featured on the blog do gain quite a bit of membership applications, even if it doesn't propel them far up to the top. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:29 PM |
It says it right in the quote.
Groups themselves will not receive points/go on leaderboards, but the clans in groups will. This is the point I am making, this won't actually affect traditional clans at all, just ROBLOX's new definition of "clans". |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:32 PM |
Yes, any group can create a clan...
That doesn't exclude ROBLOX's 'war clans' from creating their own clans. It doesn't exclude any group, or state that the system is only for gaming groups.
It just says groups.
You are making the quote into something that it is not. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:36 PM |
"Yes, any group can create a clan...
That doesn't exclude ROBLOX's 'war clans' from creating their own clans. It doesn't exclude any group, or state that the system is only for gaming groups.
It just says groups.
You are making the quote into something that it is not."
I think you're missing my point.
ONLY clans made by groups will go on these leaderboards according to the blog as only clans can get points (AKA the divison-like system ROBLOX is making, not the traditional clans we think of). And since groups/traditional clans we know do not rely on clans it therefore will not affect traditional clans at all except for the fact that the new division-clans will go on leaderboards and maybe people will decide to join their parent group.
This opens up more possibilities for easy competitive gaming as said in the blog as well. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:38 PM |
The clans represent their parent groups in all aspects. Also, gordon is contradicting what you are saying, as well.
This system was intended for all groups to use, not just gaming groups. The 'clans' represent their parent groups; they are not their own independent entities. There is no degree of separation between them. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:45 PM |
"Groups don't have the points or go on the leaderboards themselves. Clans do. Clans are basically ROBLOX's form of divisions, they're a sub-group of a bigger group. This update seems more intended to support group leagues/competitive gaming, in reality it doesn't really even affect traditional clans."
What Willingroblox123 wrote is absolutely correct. This is about introducing more competitive gaming -- and a means to measure it -- and affects the existing group system not at all. What we are calling a "clan" does not replace current groups or group/clan structure; you're free to continue your existing battles, use of forts, and so on.
The "clan" as defined in the new system is a competitive gaming unit. An existing group has the *option* of having one of these gaming units affiliated with it, but it shouldn't change anything about the way the group is structured or operates.
Before you go criticizing this feature, maybe you ought to try it out first. I'm seeing snap judgments here before anyone's even had a chance to experience what's being offered. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:47 PM |
the only clans that will trickle over to the system are hype and power clans with less than 100 members.
a lot of good clans, like vak and tgi have over 100 members
this point is flawed simply because you assume that these clans will tell 3/4 of their members to get out just to join this moronic system that's based entirely on funds |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:50 PM |
"The clans represent their parent groups in all aspects. Also, gordon is contradicting what you are saying, as well."
So my 100 member division represents our 80k member parent group... really? Just listen to yourself...
"This system was intended for all groups to use, not just gaming groups. The 'clans' represent their parent groups; they are not their own independent entities. There is no degree of separation between them."
They are separate. ROBLOX's new idea for clans are basically what we've already called divisions, except with a member limit and they're more "linked" to a group than a simple division is.
A clan will only represent it's parent group as a division of the parent group (although the blog is very vague on whether a group can have more than one clan, it only says one individual can be in one clan at a time). A clan does not represent it's group fully, it's a division of the group and would be treated as such.
It isn't required to create a clan for your group and there would really be no specific disadvantages to not creating one. You can keep your traditional clans and people can have fun with the new "competitive" clans.
Clans have many different uses, but competitive gaming is one of them. Using them as group divisions could be another. This update is good (assuming they can fix the already flawed player points), and I believe it'll bring good change. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 09:54 PM |
@chiefjustus,
Then, I'll admit that I am wrong in some respects.
Now, my question is, if this was only intended to be supplementary to the group system, *why was that no explicitly stated*?
When you speak about uniforms, and means of measuring 'group skill' through competitive measures, the first idea that comes to mind is C&G. Had it been clarified earlier that this was not intended to be a replacement for the clan system, or to be affiliated with most 'war clans' at all, you would have saved yourself a lot of time and saved us from writing useless petitions.
@tentacools,
What would be the reason to assume otherwise? If it starts a general trend (even with relatively unknown clans), it would soon move onto others. That's the way changes in the group system (even non ROBLOX-official ones) have occurred throughout the evolution of the system. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 10:02 PM |
For the most part, no one on C&G considers a division as independent of the main group. This true even for development groups, which by nature, are not lent towards fighting.
I doubt anyone considers Immortals as independent of RAT, and considering that placement in both main groups and side groups are linked, there is not much separation between them.
These 'clans' would have to be created officially at the administrative level, and therefore they will by nature, be representative of their main groups.
Also, as a secondary point...
What ensures that the system will not be bought out by those who merely award points to themselves? You state that the main preventative item will be the fact that points provide advantages to members, and it would be useless to squander that ability.
However, arguably VIP clans (especially those that offered very distinct benefits of membership) denigrated their games in order to bring members into their clan. If the place creator values giving points out to himself or bringing members into his clan, there is nothing really stop him. It's all just a question of what he values. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 10:08 PM |
"What ensures that the system will not be bought out by those who merely award points to themselves?"
This is a flaw in the system I was talking about.
Ex. Dev A happens to be a clan leader who has already integrated well-selling gamepasses into his place/base. Player points come out officially and he is still accumulating player points despite the fact that they are not given out.
Dev A sees that he has all these points and his group has a clan that he can join to give points. Dev A joins this clan and said clan receives all his points that he receives.
This way a group wouldn't need to go into battles and whatnot to get points, which is a problem for serious competitive play. Problems like this have to be addressed before an official release, but it's ROBLOX and they're quite creative with these things so I wouldn't really worry about it. |
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| 22 Apr 2014 11:05 PM |
| I think you need to look up the definition of "terraforming" |
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Moulded
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| Joined: 21 May 2010 |
| Total Posts: 14399 |
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| 23 Apr 2014 12:50 PM |
Yeah but clans suck now because money, having advanced tech and the clan community has corrupted it.
And then this just adds on the money. |
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