generic image
Processing...
  • Games
  • Catalog
  • Develop
  • Robux
  • Search in Players
  • Search in Games
  • Search in Catalog
  • Search in Groups
  • Search in Library
  • Log In
  • Sign Up
  • Games
  • Catalog
  • Develop
  • Robux
   
ROBLOX Forum » Club Houses » Global Chat
Home Search
 

Re: Capitalism vs Socialism in Africa

Previous Thread :: Next Thread 
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 10:28 AM
Let's examine a socialist country and a capitalist country in Africa.

Our capitalist is Botswana:

Botswana:

70.6 score on Index of Economic Freedom by the Heritage Foundation. (mostly free, 30th freest economy in the world.) It has quite strong property rights, the least corrupt government in Africa, and a per capita income of $14,000 (in Africa, that's impressive.) It is a stable representative constitutional republic. It has the second highest HDI of sub-Saharan African countries.

It wasn't always like this. When it gained independence from Britain in 1966, the average income was $70. What changed?

From Wikipedia:

"At the time of its independence, Botswana was among the world’s poorest countries, even poorer than most other African countries.[7][8][9][10] Khama set out on a vigorous economic programme intended to transform it into an export-based economy, built around beef, copper and diamonds. The 1967 discovery of Orapa’s diamond deposits aided this programme. However, other African countries have had abundant resources and still proved poor.[7]

Between 1966 and 1980 Botswana had the fastest growing economy in the world.[11] Much of this money was reinvested into infrastructure, health, and education costs, resulting in further economic development. Khama also instituted strong measures against corruption, the bane of so many other newly independent African nations. Unlike other countries in Africa, his administration adopted market-friendly policies to foster economic development. Khama promised low and stable taxes to mining companies, liberalized trade, and increased personal freedoms. He maintained low marginal income tax rates to deter tax evasion and corruption.[10] He upheld liberal democracy and non-racialism in the midst of a region embroiled in civil war, racial enmity and corruption.[12]"

From 1966 to 1999 the Botswana economy averaged 9% growth under the leadership of Mr. Khama's conservative "Botswana Democratic Party."

Now the socialist country:

I'll tell you right here I had some trouble picking between Mr. Julius Nyerere of Tanzania (known for his socialist policies of Ujamaa) and Mr. Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe. I opted for Zimbabwe. If you'd like to know about the disastrous effect that Ujamaa had on the Tanzanian economy, I can tell you later.

I had some trouble finding statistics of pre-Mugabe Zimbabwe (which was part of a state called Rhodesia at the time) but from what I read it was the breadbasket of Africa. It had one of the most developed infrastructures and economies in Africa. Perfect, no. But relatively good.

It's worth noting that the government was ruled by the white minority. It was technically democratic, but blacks had little say in the running of the country. Whether this contributed to not-so-great growth is up to you. But if you think Rhodesia was bad? Let's see what Mugabe has in store for the now-independent and black-ruled Zimbabwe!

Mugabe created a de-facto single-party dictatorship with his ZANU-PF party. With the euphemism of "land reform," he effectively stole land from the white farmers and gave it to the poverty-stricken black majority. He invaded the Congo once.

"...groups of individuals calling themselves “war veterans”—though many were not old enough to have been part of Zimbabwe’s independence struggle—began invading white-owned farms. Violence caused many of Zimbabwe’s whites to flee the country. Zimbabwe’s commercial farming collapsed, triggering years of hyperinflation and food shortages that created a nation of impoverished billionaires."

"The economy of Zimbabwe shrunk significantly after 2000, resulting in a desperate situation for the country and widespread poverty and an 80% unemployment rate.[8] The participation from 1998 to 2002 in the war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo set the stage for this deterioration by draining the country of hundreds of millions of dollars.[9] Hyperinflation has been a major problem from about 2003 to April 2009, when the country suspended its own currency. Zimbabwe faced 231 million per cent peak hyperinflation in 2008.[10]"

Once the breadbasket of Africa, it is now a net importer of food and crops.

Zimbabwe is one of the most corrupt nations in Africa - and in the world. Zimbabwe is number 176 on the Index of Economic Freedom, with a score of 35.6. GDP per capita is only $600. It has a GINI coefficient of .50, putting a stop to the claim that "oh, the economy failed under socialism but at least we're all equal."

Socialism has failed in Africa. Capitalism, by contrast, has succeeded.
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 10:40 AM
Any thoughts?
Report Abuse
JamesGalt is not online. JamesGalt
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Total Posts: 13607
05 Apr 2014 10:44 AM
Now how can we teach Zimbabwe the example made by Botswana
Report Abuse
DesiredShark is not online. DesiredShark
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 5123
05 Apr 2014 10:50 AM
I'm surprised, really I am.

I don't understand, why doesn't someone teach African countries the right way to peace and harmony? And who knows, a better economy?
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 10:57 AM
There's always the option of invading Zimbabwe, but I don't know if the American people want another costly war.
Report Abuse
DesiredShark is not online. DesiredShark
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 5123
05 Apr 2014 11:07 AM
"There's always the option of invading Zimbabwe, but I don't know if the American people want another costly war."

Or the UK could just take back Rhodesia.
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 11:27 AM
@Des

Maybe.
Report Abuse
DesiredShark is not online. DesiredShark
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 5123
05 Apr 2014 11:35 AM
But I don't think Mugabe would like that. He could not go down with it without a fight.
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 11:39 AM
Perhaps an invasion followed by joint occupation by UK, USA, and other trustworthy NATO powers?
Report Abuse
DesiredShark is not online. DesiredShark
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 5123
05 Apr 2014 11:41 AM
Sure.
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 11:44 AM
What is re's opinion on this (referring to the original post, not the invading-Zimbabwe thing)?
Report Abuse
NintyBoy is not online. NintyBoy
Joined: 22 Jan 2012
Total Posts: 2088
05 Apr 2014 11:51 AM
The reason why Zimbabwe is poor is because is because of its many sanctions. Its not because of its socialism.
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 12:12 PM
@ninty

An interesting point I'd like to counter with another example of African socialism. Tanzania pursued a similar socialist program of high taxes, collectivization, single-party rule, nationalization of many industries, etc. The result?

"After independence, Tanzania adopted socialist economic policies, resulting in severe economic decline. The state controlled the economy and owned all of the major enterprises. The exchange rate and pricing policies were based on non-market mechanisms, creating low export and real GDP growth, high inflation, and widespread shortages. Agricultural production, the mainstay of the economy, declined steadily."

Tanzania is now one of the poorest countries in the world in terms of per capita income.

There were no sanctions imposed on Tanzania. It is now dependent on international aid, in fact. It was dependent on loans from the world bank and IMF during the socialist era.
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 02:07 PM
bump
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 03:06 PM
Hopefully we'll see more Botswanas in the future and less Zimbabwes.
Report Abuse
metalsonic7017 is not online. metalsonic7017
Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Total Posts: 17155
05 Apr 2014 03:17 PM
ussr for the win
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 03:18 PM
>ussr for the win

Why do you say that?
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 05:11 PM
Another bump.
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 05:56 PM
Any thoughts?

Report Abuse
TheMyrco is not online. TheMyrco
Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Total Posts: 15105
05 Apr 2014 06:11 PM
Here's one for you:

"What if socialism was implemented after 10 years of capitalism in African countries?"

Join SH today! Answer scripting related questions or be answered! Link: https:// scripting helpers. org/questions
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 06:16 PM
>"What if socialism was implemented after 10 years of capitalism in African countries?"

Well, while it might not have been exactly capitalist, Tanzania inherited a well developed economy, as did Zimbabwe. They ruined it pretty quickly though.

I imagine that, let's say the socialists took over in Botswana, there would be less growth. But, it might still keep going. Or, it could just collapse like it happened in Zimbabwe and Tanzania.

What I don't see as likely or plausible is that Botswana maintains its excellent growth, relatively high standard of living, sound fiscal policy, low amount of debt etc after socialists come to power.

Report Abuse
Pakesboy is not online. Pakesboy
Joined: 09 Nov 2011
Total Posts: 3044
05 Apr 2014 06:36 PM
hahahahahhahahahahaah stupid socialists

I prefer to call Obamacare "ObamaCar" because it should drive the hell away.
Report Abuse
ApocSurrvivalist is not online. ApocSurrvivalist
Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Total Posts: 5840
05 Apr 2014 07:24 PM
look at pre 1991 somalia it was socialist/commie idk ill ask my grandad it was very rich
Report Abuse
MidmystSalt is not online. MidmystSalt
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Total Posts: 1427
05 Apr 2014 07:51 PM
Could you back your claim up with some facts or something? I'm having trouble finding economic info about the Somali Democratic Republic, which I assume is what you're talking about.

"Its socialist program in disarray and its alliance with the Soviet Union lost in the wake of the 1977-78 Ogaden War, Somalia once again turned to the West. Like most countries devastated by debt in the late 1970s, Somalia could rely only on the nostrums of the IMF and its program of structural adjustment.[1]

In February 1980, a standby macroeconomic policy agreement with the IMF was signed, but not implemented. The standby agreements of July 1981 and July 1982 were completed in July 1982 and January 1984, respectively. To meet IMF standards, the government terminated its policy of acting as the last-resort employer of all secondary school graduates and abolished its monopoly on grain marketing. The government then prepared a medium-term recovery program consisting of a public investment program for 1984-86 and a phased program of policy reforms. Because the International Development Association (IDA) considered this program too ambitious, the government scaled down its projects, most notably the construction of the Baardheere Dam, which AID had advised against. The government abandoned its first reform program in 1984. In March 1984, the government signed a letter of intent accepting the terms of a new US$183 million IMF extended credit facility to run for three years. In a Somali Council of Ministers meeting in April, however, this agreement was canceled by one vote, as the soldier-ministers chafed at the proposed 60 percent cut in the military budget. The agreement also called for a further devaluation of the shilling and reductions in government personnel.[1]

In March 1985, in negotiations with the Paris Club (the informal name for a consortium of eighteen Western creditor countries), Somalia's debt service schedule was restructured, and the government adopted a reform program that included a devaluation and the establishment of a free market for foreign exchange for most private transactions. In November 1985, in conjunction with the Consultative Group of Aid Donors, a technical body of the Paris Club, the government presented its National Development Strategy and Programme with a revised three-year investment program. Western aid officials criticized this program as too ambitious. In June 1986, the government negotiated an agricultural sector adjustment program with IDA. In September 1986, a foreign exchange auction system was initiated, but its operation encountered severe difficulties because to its complete dependence on external aid. Many exchange rates applicable to different types of transactions consequently came into existence.[1]

AID prepared a second-stage project report in 1986 that renewed the call for privatization. It praised the government for permitting the free importation of petroleum products, but chided the Somalis for not yet allowing the free marketing of hides and skins. AID put great pressure on the government, especially by means of lobbyists, to take action on legislation to permit private banking. To encourage the private sector further, AID was prepared to fund the Somali Chamber of Commerce if the Somali government would allow it to become an independent body. The 1986 report went beyond privatization by calling for means of improving the government's revenue collection and budgetary control systems. Building a government capable of collecting taxes, making policy reforms, and addressing fiscal problems became the new focus. Along these lines, AID encouraged the elimination of civil service jobs. As of in 1985, although 5,000 civil servants had been dismissed AID felt that 80 percent of the civil service was still redundant. AID officials, however, urged pay raises for those in useful jobs.[1]

Somalia's Five-Year Plan for 1987-91 largely reflected the international pressures and incentives of the IMF and AID. Privatization was written into the plan, as were development projects that were smaller in scale and more easily implemented. By 1988 the government had announced implementation of many IMF and AID-encouraged structural adjustment policies. In regard to foreign exchange, the government had taken many intermediate steps that would lead to the merger of the pegged and market rates. As for banking, legislation had been enacted allowing private banks to operate. In public finance, the government had reduced its deficit from 10 to 7 percent of GDP, as had been advised, but acknowledged that the increased taxes on fuel, rent, and sales had been only partially implemented. A value-added tax on fuel imports remained under consideration, but the tax on rental income had been increased and the sales tax raised from 5 to 10 percent. The government continued to procrastinate concerning public enterprises, holding only informal discussion of plans to liquidate unprofitable enterprises.[1]

With the devaluation of the shilling, the real cost of foreign grain became apparent to consumers, and the relative price of domestic grain rose. Rectifying prices induced a 13.5 percent increase in agricultural output between 1983 and 1985. Inflation was tamed as well, falling from an annual rate of 59 percent in 1980 to 36 percent in 1986. World Bank officials used these data to publicize the Somali success in structural adjustment.[1]

The overall picture was not that encouraging, however. Manufacturing output declined, registering a drop of 0.5 percent per annum from 1980 to 1987. Exports decreased by 16.3 percent per annum from 1979 to 1986. Moreover, the 0.8 percent rise in GDP per annum from 1979 to 1986 did not keep up with population growth. World Bank estimates put Somalia's 1989 GNP at US$1,035 million, or US$170 per person, and further estimated that between 1980 and 1989 real GNP per person had declined at 1.7 percent per year.[1]

In the period from 1987 to 1989, the economic results of agricultural production were mixed. Although corn, sorghum, and sugarcane were principal crops, livestock and bananas remained major exports. The value of livestock and banana exports in 1989 (the latest year for which data were available in May 1992) was US$26 million and US$25 million, respectively. Livestock, consisting primarily of camels, cattle, goats, and sheep, served several purposes. The animals provided milk and meat for domestic consumption, and livestock, hides, and skins for export.[1]

As a result of the civil war in many areas, the economy deteriorated rapidly in 1989 and 1990. Previously, livestock exports from northern Somalia represented nearly 80 percent of foreign currency earned, but these exports came to a virtual halt in 1989. Shortages of most commodities, including food, fuel, medicines, and water, occurred virtually countrywide. Following the fall of the Siad Barre regime in late January 1991, the situation failed to improve because clan warfare intensified.[1]"

It seems like it wasn't all too great. Interestingly enough, they did take on loans from the IMF. The transition to capitalism must have not been done correctly, like in Botswana. After all, they did retain a socialist structure.
Report Abuse
DesiredShark is not online. DesiredShark
Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 5123
05 Apr 2014 08:20 PM
"hahahahahhahahahahaah stupid socialists"

I would not be laughing if I were you, you were probably a Socialist at one time.
Report Abuse
Previous Thread :: Next Thread 
Page 1 of 1
 
 
ROBLOX Forum » Club Houses » Global Chat
   
 
   
  • About Us
  • Jobs
  • Blog
  • Parents
  • Help
  • Terms
  • Privacy

©2017 Roblox Corporation. Roblox, the Roblox logo, Robux, Bloxy, and Powering Imagination are among our registered and unregistered trademarks in the U.S. and other countries.



Progress
Starting Roblox...
Connecting to Players...
R R

Roblox is now loading. Get ready to play!

R R

You're moments away from getting into the game!

Click here for help

Check Remember my choice and click Launch Application in the dialog box above to join games faster in the future!

Gameplay sponsored by:
Loading 0% - Starting game...
Get more with Builders Club! Join Builders Club
Choose Your Avatar
I have an account
generic image