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Re: israel attacks a russian shipment of missiles in syria

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junior5a is not online. junior5a
Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 262
01 Nov 2013 12:31 AM
I wonder whats going to happen when the entire middle east turns on israel?

Israel is a terrible country. They are always attacking their neighbors and they also practice eugenics D:
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GardevoirOfOT is not online. GardevoirOfOT
Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 783
01 Nov 2013 12:34 AM
eugenics is a good thing though, as long as you don't kill people trying to eradicate the imperfections


if everyone is literally equal then seriously imagine a country without racism or anything of the sort
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RenardFanboy is not online. RenardFanboy
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2019
01 Nov 2013 12:35 AM
[ Content Deleted ]
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thefools is not online. thefools
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Total Posts: 44
01 Nov 2013 12:48 AM
Israel would have already been destroyed by the rest of the Middle East if the United States weren’t protecting them.
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junior5a is not online. junior5a
Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 262
01 Nov 2013 01:02 AM
@TheFools

This ends in a war, and likely a world war. After Palestine gets its own border, and shipments of weapons, and continues its attacks, this time uninhibited against Israel, with several allies, the US will be forced to come to the aide of Israel, and then Syria to the aide of Palestine, then Russia to the Aide of Syria, then China to the aide of Russia, then economic collapse of the US due to the China angle, then Europe missile defense against Russia, then US to the aide of Europe, then Iran against the US, then North Korea vs the US, then Europe vs North Korea, then Iran vs Europe… etc etc etc.

Give Palestine the power of war, when it has no intentions of peace? Like I said, give me a solution to the problem that doesn’t involve mass genocide.
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NeptuneOG is not online. NeptuneOG
Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Total Posts: 20798
01 Nov 2013 01:08 AM
Israel is extremely powerful militarily, they'd be able to hold their own against just about anybody.


and politic-wise nobody would attack them because we got their back
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thefools is not online. thefools
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Total Posts: 44
01 Nov 2013 01:09 AM
@Junior5a

Yes, it actually does make them eligible. Especially since they are still there and the land is currently being illegally occupied. The alternate possibility is a one state solution which Israel certainly does not want. One of the greatest parts of the Problem is that the Israel wants to conquer the land but not the People.

Also remember the solution that i advocated would not even give them immediate autonomy and control over their territory, but instead a UN government would take over. Until the basic institutions necessary for a modern country are installed. It would strongly reduce the illegal and militant measures both sides take leading to a durable peace.
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junior5a is not online. junior5a
Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 262
01 Nov 2013 01:16 AM
@TheFools

Over 1,456 rockets were fired at Israel between November 14 and 21. Notice the difference when there is a war going on? The extra rockets in October (wiki says 17 rockets and 8 mortar shells in September from Gaza)where themselves already a retaliation against an Israeli air strike that murdered Abdullah Mohamed Hassan Maqawi and injured 11 others.
The Hamas does not control all militant islamistic groups. Having a cease-fire does not mean 0 attacks.
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thefools is not online. thefools
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Total Posts: 44
01 Nov 2013 01:21 AM
@Junior5a

The scale of the war being small does not make it a cease-fire. You said Israel broke a cease-fire, and I asked you to specify what cease-fire.

My point here is simply that you cannot fault Israel for the air strikes while not faulting Palestine for the rockets. You can’t decide who started it, because there has never been an actual cease-fire, since both sides (Israel and Hamas) refuse to negotiate with each other. Don’t let your feelings towards Palestine cloud the truth, like punisher has. There is no right side here. Israel has illegal settlements, and Gaza is a breeding ground for terror. The solution is not “Israel should leave the Palestinians alone and let them be a country”. This isn’t a one sided affair. Both sides are in the wrong and need to stop being in the wrong.

If Israel leaves Gaza alone, Hamas wouldn’t have a reason to attack Israel. And if Hamas stops all attacks on Israel, and denounces terrorism, Israel won’t have a reason to attack Gaza. But neither side is willing to do that.

This of course is VERY difficult as the majority of the Palestinians and the Israelis are unfortunately against peace. I really don’t know what sort of catastrophic event needs to happen to make all these people realize how stupid they are, but until then, the governments of the Palestinians and the Israelis will continue to reflect the popular opinion of their respective people, which is to not cooperate with the other side.
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junior5a is not online. junior5a
Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 262
01 Nov 2013 01:30 AM
@TheFools

No they refuse to negotiate lasting peace, cease-fires and prisoner trades are pretty common. Usually negotiated by a third party intermediate or unofficially by one side deescalating their attacks and the other following suite.

And yes i can fault Israel for the air strikes without faulting the Hamas and other radical militant groups for the rockets. To understand this you have to know that by international law an occupier(which Israel claims the rights to, even over Gaza after leaving and locking it up from outside) is solely and ultimately responsible for the policing of the territory. This means two things:
1. if it delegates this power to institutions made of people of the occupied territories like the PNA, Fatah and Hamas then its responsible for the actions these groups take or not take in regards to the delegated power.
2. As the one responsible for policing the streets, using air strikes except on a target thats an immediate threat, is simply murder. Israel is actually obligated by the status it claims as occupier to go and send the police(which maybe military police and equipped as such) to arrest and bring to trial the suspect terrorist.
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thefools is not online. thefools
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Total Posts: 44
01 Nov 2013 01:36 AM
@Junior5a

I never claimed my sources were not biased, only that they represented Israel’s stance on the matter. I understood Johnny’s statement wrong, and was responding to Johnny’s claim that Israel claims to be the occupier of Gaza, while he in fact meant that he thinks of Israel as an occupier of Gaza.

Now that I understand his statements I can respond to them:

Yes, you can fault Israel for the air strikes if Israel as the occupier of Gaza is responsible for policing of the territory. But I disagree that you can fault them while not faulting Hamas. What you are saying is that there are two solutions to this problem: Israel re-invades Gaza, either to bring down the Hamas and delegate power to Palestinian institutions or to enforce its own military policing, and Israel dropping all control of Gaza’s airspace and coastline.

But you are ignoring the fact that Hamas is not powerless in this. Thinking that they are justified to resort to terrorism is preposterous. Hamas has the option to cease all hostilities towards Israel, denounce terrorism and accept Israel as a country by its 1967 borders. This is a viable and possible option for Hamas, but they choose the option of terrorism instead. They are equally as guilty in wanting this conflict to continue as Israel is.

The only point I am trying to make in this thread is that both of these factions are guilty of the situation they are in. Both of these factions have ways in which they can end it, and both of these factions refuse to take them, and refuse peace. That is all
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junior5a is not online. junior5a
Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 262
01 Nov 2013 01:43 AM
@TheFools

Currently, Hamas represents the government in Gaza, and Fatah represents the Palestinian government in the West Bank. As the people who represent the Gazan Palestinians, they have the power to stop the terrorism and enforce law upon them.
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thefools is not online. thefools
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Total Posts: 44
01 Nov 2013 01:45 AM
@Junior5a

Actually they don’t. They arguably have the power to stop their own people, but they don’t represent all Palestinians in Gaza. It’s bandit country, and if other groups decide that there will be no surrender and they will fight to the death, there’s not a lot that Hamas can do about it. As we saw in Northern Ireland today, when the headbangers decide to go on the rampage, no political force can stop them – they are a law unto themselves.

If Hamas renounced terrorism and got no concessions from Israel, politically they are dead. Quite possibly literally too. You live there in Israel, so you must be aware of that. Other than that, the Palestinians really have nothing to offer. How terrorism affects their standing in the world is not the issue. In their view, without it the Palestinians will become the forgotten people again.

Now a ceasefire of some kind is a prerequisite for Israel to enter into negotiations. In order to get that, the Israelis are going to have to come up with a pretty big carrot, which they are showing no signs of doing, not that I can see anyway. They seem quite content to wage a war of attrition and force the Palestinians to move out over a period of time. As I believe someone pointed out earlier, they want the land but they don’t want the people who are currently living on it.

In a way, Israel doesn’t need to negotiate. The Oslo agreements gave them everything they needed. Alright, they’ve had to stretch some points here and there, and put up some buil$hit arguements to justify their actions, but the whole deal was very much in their favour. As a citizen or resident of Israel, can you show me any indication that the present government wants to come to an understanding with the Palestinians on anything other than their terms?
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junior5a is not online. junior5a
Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 262
01 Nov 2013 01:53 AM
@TheFools

Israel is not interested in ending the conflict because it allows Israel to continue cultivating its illegal settlements which is what the majority in Israel want. Hamas is not interested in ending the conflict because the majority of Palestinians want Israel to not exist.

I personally believe that Israel has less incentive to stop, because it suffers minor consequences. But unfortunately the only way to rally the world against Israel’s actions is for Hamas to stop its violence, thus denying Israel of a way to blame their actions on Palestinian actions.

So again: Both sides are at fault. Both sides CAN end this conflict. Neither side WANTS to end this conflict. This makes me sad. The end.
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thefools is not online. thefools
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Total Posts: 44
01 Nov 2013 01:58 AM
@Junior5a

Why do they need to offer anything?
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junior5a is not online. junior5a
Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Total Posts: 262
01 Nov 2013 02:02 AM
@Thefools


Trust, or rather the total lack of it. To get the parties round a negotiating table again (which I see as the only possible long term solution), it helps if a few concessions are made by all sides to show a bit of willing, to oil the wheels. Something small on both sides would probably suffice, but what has Hamas got other than an end to violence. A permanent end to it is the purpose of the negotiations, and it’s unrealistic to expect Hamas to concede that unconditionally before anything has been discussed. A short term ceasefire might be enough, but I don’t see any signs of Israel responding to that. They have the whip hand, and they’re not giving a inch. Palestine is already on its knees and being propped up financially by international donations. I can’t see that there are any points that they can concede to get the ball rolling.

The Palestinians are in a corner, and they can’t take a step back because there’s nowhere for them to go. The Israelis could, but as you say, they believe they have no incentive. I would have thought that it was in their long term interests, but it looks as if they prefer the ethnic cleansing option, certainly as far as the West Bank is concerned. Slowly but surely Israel is making itself the pariah of the world. Twenty years ago I was much more sympathetic towards Israel, but the more I find out about what they are getting up to, the more I am turning against them. The Israelis have better PR than Hamas, but that can only paper over the cracks for so long.
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